SHOtimes List Archive

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Mail From: "van Oss" <(email redacted)>

It sounds as though speedo inaccuracy is the helpful factor in your
experiment, George. In a sense you've corrected an error in the car. That
by itself would be a postive step.

I've confirmed several times in my 92 SHO that the speedo UNDERstates actual
speed by exactly 2 MPH. I've noticed the speedo on our Crown Vic OVERstates
actual speed a lot. The last time my wife followed me on the Interstate,
she in the Vic and I in the SHO, she really gave me the dickens, thinking
we'd been doing 85 MPH in a 70. We'd been doing exactly 75 -- I'd confirmed
that using the stopwatch function in the dash clock, 10 miles in 8:00
minutes. My speedo had been showing 73 MPH.

VO

----- Original Message -----
The speedo conveniently read about 4.5 miles fast from the factory....Lexus
has the largest intentional speedometer error in its class, according to
something I read in CU or CR a few years ago....
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Mail From: G Kerby Haltom <(email redacted)>

GPS is very helpful for this. My SHO is dead on, at least within the needle's width. The BMW is optomistic by 3 - 5 MPH. The odometer on the BMWis dead on, so they did the speedo error on purpose...

And George, we're only giving you a hard time because, well, you're you! And we enjoy it, and expect the back from you later...

Kerby

van Oss <(email redacted)> wrote: It sounds as though speedo inaccuracy is the helpful factor in your
experiment, George. In a sense you've corrected an error in the car. That
by itself would be a postive step.

I've confirmed several times in my 92 SHO that the speedo UNDERstates actual
speed by exactly 2 MPH. I've noticed the speedo on our Crown Vic OVERstates
actual speed a lot. The last time my wife followed me on the Interstate,
she in the Vic and I in the SHO, she really gave me the dickens, thinking
we'd been doing 85 MPH in a 70. We'd been doing exactly 75 -- I'd confirmed
that using the stopwatch function in the dash clock, 10 miles in 8:00
minutes. My speedo had been showing 73 MPH.

VO

----- Original Message -----
The speedo conveniently read about 4.5 miles fast from the factory....Lexus
has the largest intentional speedometer error in its class, according to
something I read in CU or CR a few years ago....
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Mail From: "Paul L Fisher" <(email redacted)>

I've been running with my GPS and my BMW 540i is about 10% under. Speedo
says 70, doing 63. My VW Golf is closer to 5% under. Speedo says 70, doing
67.

It is obvious to me that most car speedometers are off though. I always do a
GPS indicated 9.5 MPH over the limit and usually creep by other cars which I
assume are doing 10 over on their speedometers.


Paul L Fisher

Visit my website: paul-fisher.com
Amsoil dealer: paul-fisher.com/oil


-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
On Behalf Of van Oss
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 11:25 AM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: [Shotimes] Speedo Error... was: My MPG Test is Working!!

It sounds as though speedo inaccuracy is the helpful factor in your
experiment, George. In a sense you've corrected an error in the car. That
by itself would be a postive step.

I've confirmed several times in my 92 SHO that the speedo UNDERstates actual

speed by exactly 2 MPH. I've noticed the speedo on our Crown Vic OVERstates

actual speed a lot. The last time my wife followed me on the Interstate,
she in the Vic and I in the SHO, she really gave me the dickens, thinking
we'd been doing 85 MPH in a 70. We'd been doing exactly 75 -- I'd confirmed

that using the stopwatch function in the dash clock, 10 miles in 8:00
minutes. My speedo had been showing 73 MPH.

VO

----- Original Message -----
The speedo conveniently read about 4.5 miles fast from the factory....Lexus
has the largest intentional speedometer error in its class, according to
something I read in CU or CR a few years ago....


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Mail From: "Ron Porter" <(email redacted)>

All three of my MTX SHOs would underread by 3%. It took me a few years, and
a few 81-in-a-65 (when I thought I was doing 79) speeding tickets in my '89
before I figured it out.

Ron Porter


-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
On Behalf Of van Oss
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 12:25 PM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: [Shotimes] Speedo Error... was: My MPG Test is Working!!

It sounds as though speedo inaccuracy is the helpful factor in your
experiment, George. In a sense you've corrected an error in the car. That
by itself would be a postive step.

I've confirmed several times in my 92 SHO that the speedo UNDERstates actual

speed by exactly 2 MPH. I've noticed the speedo on our Crown Vic OVERstates

actual speed a lot. The last time my wife followed me on the Interstate,
she in the Vic and I in the SHO, she really gave me the dickens, thinking
we'd been doing 85 MPH in a 70. We'd been doing exactly 75 -- I'd confirmed

that using the stopwatch function in the dash clock, 10 miles in 8:00
minutes. My speedo had been showing 73 MPH.

VO

----- Original Message -----
The speedo conveniently read about 4.5 miles fast from the factory....Lexus
has the largest intentional speedometer error in its class, according to
something I read in CU or CR a few years ago....
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Mail From: "Paul Nimz" <(email redacted)>

My '97 is within 1 mph of correct. But then I calibrated the speedo
needle......

Paul


On 8/9/2006 12:22:22 PM, Ron Porter ((email redacted)) wrote:
> All three of my MTX SHOs would underread by 3%. It took me a few years,
> and
> a few 81-in-a-65 (when I thought I was doing 79) speeding tickets in my
> '89
> before I figured it out.
>
> Ron Porter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
> On Behalf Of van Oss
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 12:25 PM
> To: (email redacted)
> Subject: [Shotimes] Speedo Error... was: My MPG Test is Working!!
>
> It sounds as though speedo inaccuracy is the helpful factor in your
> experiment, George. In a sense you've
> corrected an error in the car. That
> by itself would be a postive step.
>
> I've confirmed several times in my 92 SHO that the speedo UNDERstates
actual
>
> speed by exactly 2 MPH. I've
> noticed the speedo on our Crown Vic OVERstates
>
> actual speed a lot. The last time my wife followed me on the Interstate,
>
> she in the Vic and I in the SHO, she really gave me the dickens, thinking
>
> we'd been doing 85 MPH in a 70. We'd been doing exactly 75 -- I'd
confirmed
>
> that using the stopwatch function in the dash clock, 10 miles in 8:00
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Mail From: Alan Fanning <(email redacted)>

The speedo reading has nothing to do with George's improved gas mileage -
other than I gather he is driving slower than he used to, which no doubt
helps. The new tires just eliminate the error he previously had in the
speedo reading.

As for the odometer reading, he's correcting the new readings by the ratio
of diameters of the new (taller) vs old (shorter) tires, respectively. This
gives a corrected miles traveled with the same accuracy, or inaccuracy, as
previously (with the OEM tires). So the math is correct, and the improved
gas mileage impressive, but it's still not clear to me how much of the
improvement is the result of the taller tires and how much is the result of
a more conservative driving style.

If a 5% reduction in final drive ratio nets an improvement of several mpg's,
I question what the manufacturer's were thinking in not taking advantage of
that.

Alan



VO wrote:

> It sounds as though speedo inaccuracy is the helpful factor in your
> experiment, George. In a sense you've corrected an error in the car. That
> by itself would be a postive step.
>
> I've confirmed several times in my 92 SHO that the speedo UNDERstates actual
> speed by exactly 2 MPH. I've noticed the speedo on our Crown Vic OVERstates
> actual speed a lot. The last time my wife followed me on the Interstate,
> she in the Vic and I in the SHO, she really gave me the dickens, thinking
> we'd been doing 85 MPH in a 70. We'd been doing exactly 75 -- I'd confirmed
> that using the stopwatch function in the dash clock, 10 miles in 8:00
> minutes. My speedo had been showing 73 MPH.
>
> VO
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Mail From: "Techpriest" <(email redacted)>

By making the tires bigger you increase the torque needed to turn them.
Would putting larger tires on not increase the Highway MPG but decrease the
City MPG?

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
On Behalf Of Alan Fanning
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 2:30 PM
To: SHOtimes
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Speedo Error... was: My MPG Test is Working!!

If a 5% reduction in final drive ratio nets an improvement of several mpg's,
I question what the manufacturer's were thinking in not taking advantage of
that.
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Mail From: Ron Childs <(email redacted)>

Using bigger tires is the equivalent of using a numerically lower final drive ratio or a higher gear. You get better gas mileage by driving 60 in 5th instead of 3rd. The increased throttle opening required with the bigger tires does not use as much air/fuel as the higher rpms of using a lower gear (or final drive ratio) would.

Am I clear as mud?

-Ron


Techpriest <(email redacted)> wrote:
By making the tires bigger you increase the torque needed to turn them.
Would putting larger tires on not increase the Highway MPG but decrease the
City MPG?

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
On Behalf Of Alan Fanning
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 2:30 PM
To: SHOtimes
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Speedo Error... was: My MPG Test is Working!!

If a 5% reduction in final drive ratio nets an improvement of several mpg's,
I question what the manufacturer's were thinking in not taking advantage of
that.
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Mail From: "Ron Porter" <(email redacted)>

My '99 was spot-on. Electronic speedo/odo setups do work better.

Ron Porter

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
On Behalf Of Paul Nimz
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 2:58 PM
To: `V6 SHOtimes; `(email redacted)
Subject: RE: [Shotimes] Speedo Error... was: My MPG Test is Working!!

My '97 is within 1 mph of correct. But then I calibrated the speedo
needle......

Paul


On 8/9/2006 12:22:22 PM, Ron Porter ((email redacted)) wrote:
> All three of my MTX SHOs would underread by 3%. It took me a few years,
> and
> a few 81-in-a-65 (when I thought I was doing 79) speeding tickets in my
> '89
> before I figured it out.
>
> Ron Porter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
> On Behalf Of van Oss
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 12:25 PM
> To: (email redacted)
> Subject: [Shotimes] Speedo Error... was: My MPG Test is Working!!
>
> It sounds as though speedo inaccuracy is the helpful factor in your
> experiment, George. In a sense you've
> corrected an error in the car. That
> by itself would be a postive step.
>
> I've confirmed several times in my 92 SHO that the speedo UNDERstates
actual
>
> speed by exactly 2 MPH. I've
> noticed the speedo on our Crown Vic OVERstates
>
> actual speed a lot. The last time my wife followed me on the Interstate,
>
> she in the Vic and I in the SHO, she really gave me the dickens, thinking
>
> we'd been doing 85 MPH in a 70. We'd been doing exactly 75 -- I'd
confirmed
>
> that using the stopwatch function in the dash clock, 10 miles in 8:00
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Mail From: James White <(email redacted)>

My '95mtx SHO speedo and odo both read 3-5% under the GPS reading.
This is with OEM sized tires (Michelin Pilots)

regards, Jim White


At Wednesday, 9 August 2006, "Paul L Fisher" <(email redacted)>
wrote:

>I've been running with my GPS and my BMW 540i is about 10% under.
Speedo
>says 70, doing 63. My VW Golf is closer to 5% under. Speedo says
70, doing
>67.
>
>It is obvious to me that most car speedometers are off though. I
always do a
>GPS indicated 9.5 MPH over the limit and usually creep by other
cars which I
>assume are doing 10 over on their speedometers.
>
>Paul L Fisher
>
>Visit my website: paul-fisher.com
>Amsoil dealer: paul-fisher.com/oil
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: (email redacted) [mailto:shotimes-admin@autox.
team.net]
>On Behalf Of van Oss
>Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 11:25 AM
>To: (email redacted)
>Subject: [Shotimes] Speedo Error... was: My MPG Test is Working!!
>
>It sounds as though speedo inaccuracy is the helpful factor in your
>experiment, George. In a sense you've corrected an error in the
car. That
>by itself would be a postive step.
>
>I've confirmed several times in my 92 SHO that the speedo UNDERstates
actual
>
>speed by exactly 2 MPH. I've noticed the speedo on our Crown Vic
OVERstates
>
>actual speed a lot. The last time my wife followed me on the Interstate,

>she in the Vic and I in the SHO, she really gave me the dickens,
thinking
>we'd been doing 85 MPH in a 70. We'd been doing exactly 75 -- I'd
confirmed
>
>that using the stopwatch function in the dash clock, 10 miles in 8:00
>minutes. My speedo had been showing 73 MPH.
>
>VO
>
>----- Original Message -----
>The speedo conveniently read about 4.5 miles fast from the factory.
..Lexus
>has the largest intentional speedometer error in its class, according
to
>something I read in CU or CR a few years ago....
>
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>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.8/414 - Release Date:
8/9/2006
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Mail From: (email redacted)

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Ron Childs <(email redacted)>
> Using bigger tires is the equivalent of using a numerically lower final drive
> ratio or a higher gear. You get better gas mileage by driving 60 in 5th instead
> of 3rd. The increased throttle opening required with the bigger tires does not
> use as much air/fuel as the higher rpms of using a lower gear (or final drive
> ratio) would.
>
> Am I clear as mud?

That is the exact logic I was using. The car had too many revs at cruise, and a whole lot more torque than it needed, since it was geared wrong at the factory, for some reason. I gave myself a higher overdrive by putting on the larger size. I theoretically lose a bit of acceleration, both off the line and at the initiation of each gear during normal upshifting. But the car still has plenty of power for those times....the excess capability was just being wasted.

All of this is knowledge learned in preparation for working on 'gearing up' the truck next year. I'll have to go to a supplemental transmission to do the job with it...I want to slow the engine by 33% at cruise, from 3000 rpm to 2000. I want to try to increase its mileage from 10 to 15. New ones can do it...why not mine?

It's a 460 CID V-8...plenty of torque at 2000 to carry itself just fine.

George
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Mail From: (email redacted)

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Alan Fanning <(email redacted)>

> If a 5% reduction in final drive ratio nets an improvement of several mpg's,
> I question what the manufacturer's were thinking in not taking advantage of
> that.
>

This fact is what brought the whole thing to my attention. We borrowed an '05 RX330 from the Sac Lexus dealer last summer, while Eva's (now sold) RX300 got some diagnostics, and drove it over Donner Summit to Reno and back. While working the tranny manually while using CC, I was able to get about 25 mpg average while going 65 mph, when her 300 would only get about 18 on that trip. Its engine turned 2900 RPM at 65, while the RX330 turned 2200. With her driving around town, she didn't even get 14. The 300 had GPS, while the 330 didn't, but had a trip computer. My GS doesn't have either one.

I discovered on the trip home (I-5, at 70 mph) from Oregon that the GS still doesn't do as well as I'd like it to above 65 mph. At 70-72, it drops down to somewhere around 25, while it will get 30+ at between 60 and 65. We averaged about 27.5 on the I-5 trip home, when I would have expected it to be at least near 30, after the previous day when it beat 30. The majority of that earlier trip was at 65 and then 55 in Oregon. It's going to be too hard to lower the engine speed by another 300 rpm or so, so I'll just live with it.

I discovered a similar rapid drop in mpg in my '78 Fiesta, which now is owned by Jim Koper in Ohio. After it got its '98 European engine through rebuilding, it got REALLY good freeway mileage (32-35) below 70 mph, where it crossed over the 3000 rpm range. Above that speed the mileage dropped down to about 25. So that is two vehicles I have seen where an engine speed change of just a few hundred RPM makes a large difference in mpg.

I'm still keeping the GS till the wheels fall off.

George
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Mail From: "Mike" <(email redacted)>

There are a lot of factors involved here, not the least of which is the air
resistance increases by the square with speed. At speeds over 65 or so,
this becomes by far the biggest source of drag. I had a Fiesta in the 70s
for my demo while I was working as a salesman for Cal Worthington Ford; neat
car. But its Cs must have been around 1; no amount of gearing would change
the drag over 70! Just a box.
Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>; "SHOTimes" <(email redacted)>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Speedo Error... was: My MPG Test is Working!!


> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Alan Fanning <(email redacted)>
>
> > If a 5% reduction in final drive ratio nets an improvement of several
mpg's,
> > I question what the manufacturer's were thinking in not taking advantage
of
> > that.
> >
>
> This fact is what brought the whole thing to my attention. We borrowed an
'05 RX330 from the Sac Lexus dealer last summer, while Eva's (now sold)
RX300 got some diagnostics, and drove it over Donner Summit to Reno and
back. While working the tranny manually while using CC, I was able to get
about 25 mpg average while going 65 mph, when her 300 would only get about
18 on that trip. Its engine turned 2900 RPM at 65, while the RX330 turned
2200. With her driving around town, she didn't even get 14. The 300 had
GPS, while the 330 didn't, but had a trip computer. My GS doesn't have
either one.
>
> I discovered on the trip home (I-5, at 70 mph) from Oregon that the GS
still doesn't do as well as I'd like it to above 65 mph. At 70-72, it drops
down to somewhere around 25, while it will get 30+ at between 60 and 65. We
averaged about 27.5 on the I-5 trip home, when I would have expected it to
be at least near 30, after the previous day when it beat 30. The majority
of that earlier trip was at 65 and then 55 in Oregon. It's going to be too
hard to lower the engine speed by another 300 rpm or so, so I'll just live
with it.
>
> I discovered a similar rapid drop in mpg in my '78 Fiesta, which now is
owned by Jim Koper in Ohio. After it got its '98 European engine through
rebuilding, it got REALLY good freeway mileage (32-35) below 70 mph, where
it crossed over the 3000 rpm range. Above that speed the mileage dropped
down to about 25. So that is two vehicles I have seen where an engine speed
change of just a few hundred RPM makes a large difference in mpg.
>
> I'm still keeping the GS till the wheels fall off.
>
> George
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>
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