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Mail From: (email redacted)

I know we talked about this on the list a while back.


news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_bi_ge/nitrogen_tires

"Skeptics will question how much can be gained by filling tires with pure nitrogen when the air we breathe is 78 percent nitrogen."


Being a skeptic (and an engineer) I will and do question this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when a tire is mounted on a rim, doesn't "regular air" get trapped inside???? Even if pure Nitrogen is used to "pop" the tire bead onto the rim there's still "regular air" inside that will be mixed with the Nitrogen. Soooo, you don't end up with a tire filled with 100% Nitrogen. The only way to ensure 100% Nitrogen inside the tire is if the tire mounting machine were inside a sealed room filled with Nitrogen and the installer had to wear an Oxygen mask. Is that what the tire dealer purchases for $3,000 to $12,000 dollars? What am I missing here?

What if it's Sunday night and my tire(s) are a few psi low? If the local Gas 'n Sip doesn't have Nitrogen, then what good is having Nitrogen in my tires?
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Mail From: "Hartberger, Jason M. AT2 (AW)" <(email redacted)>

IIRC, the main advantages of nitrogen are that a) it doesn't expand as
much (or at all? Can't remember) as much as regular air does and b)
doesn't absorb moisture. Really, for 99.9% of drivers out there, just
finding good quality air that doesn't get your face wet when you spray
it on you is really good enough. Moist air + tire rubber = bad. I know
out here on the carrier we fill all our planes' tires with nitrogen, but
that's because the tires get very very very hot very rapidly when they
land on a carrier, and they're already filled up way high (>150psi) to
withstand a carrier landing. Air filled tires would virtually be
guaranteed to explode due to rapid pressure increase from heat.

Mostly, us SHO people don't have to worry about that. Except maybe
George F. I hear he's done some pretty crazy S*** with his... (general
lee?) anyway, um, yeah... I guess really you'd be just as well off using
dry air, and filling it up often!

Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailtoemail redacted)] On Behalf Of
(email redacted)
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:24 PM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires

I know we talked about this on the list a while back.


news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_bi_ge/nitrogen_tires

"Skeptics will question how much can be gained by filling tires with
pure nitrogen when the air we breathe is 78 percent nitrogen."


Being a skeptic (and an engineer) I will and do question this. Correct
me if I'm wrong, but when a tire is mounted on a rim, doesn't "regular
air" get trapped inside???? Even if pure Nitrogen is used to "pop" the
tire bead onto the rim there's still "regular air" inside that will be
mixed with the Nitrogen. Soooo, you don't end up with a tire filled
with 100% Nitrogen. The only way to ensure 100% Nitrogen inside the
tire is if the tire mounting machine were inside a sealed room filled
with Nitrogen and the installer had to wear an Oxygen mask. Is that
what the tire dealer purchases for $3,000 to $12,000 dollars? What am I
missing here?

What if it's Sunday night and my tire(s) are a few psi low? If the
local Gas 'n Sip doesn't have Nitrogen, then what good is having
Nitrogen in my tires?
_______________________________________________
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(email redacted)
team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Ron Porter" <(email redacted)>

Besides the marketing angle to make a few $$$, the only possible benefit are
for clueless folks who never check their tire air (I can think of a few
family members as I write this). They have a better chance of keeping a
consistent tire pressure over the 6-12 months before the tires get checked
again (most likely at oil change time).

For the rest of us who check tires more regularly, it's a waste.

Planes and race tires are the useful applications for it that I can see.

Ron Porter


-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
On Behalf Of (email redacted)
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:24 PM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires

I know we talked about this on the list a while back.


news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_bi_ge/nitrogen_tires

"Skeptics will question how much can be gained by filling tires with pure
nitrogen when the air we breathe is 78 percent nitrogen."


Being a skeptic (and an engineer) I will and do question this. Correct me
if I'm wrong, but when a tire is mounted on a rim, doesn't "regular air" get
trapped inside???? Even if pure Nitrogen is used to "pop" the tire bead
onto the rim there's still "regular air" inside that will be mixed with the
Nitrogen. Soooo, you don't end up with a tire filled with 100% Nitrogen.
The only way to ensure 100% Nitrogen inside the tire is if the tire mounting
machine were inside a sealed room filled with Nitrogen and the installer had
to wear an Oxygen mask. Is that what the tire dealer purchases for $3,000
to $12,000 dollars? What am I missing here?

What if it's Sunday night and my tire(s) are a few psi low? If the local
Gas 'n Sip doesn't have Nitrogen, then what good is having Nitrogen in my
tires?
_______________________________________________
Shotimes mailing list
(email redacted)
team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
_______________________________________________
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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Jon Heese <(email redacted)>

I'm skeptical too, but here's one thing you missed:

The commercials I've heard on the radio for this say that they actually
suck the air out of the tires and replace it with N2.

So, they could push the tire onto the rim, pop it with air if they
wanted to, then suck (most of) the air out if it and refill it with N2.

Depending on how much vacuum they can put on the tire without the bead
unsealing, it seems like it could get decently close to pure N2.

I'm skeptical that it actually helps anything. Especially
cost/benefit-wise.

Regards,
Jon Heese

(email redacted) wrote:
> I know we talked about this on the list a while back.
>
>
> news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_bi_ge/nitrogen_tires
>
> "Skeptics will question how much can be gained by filling tires with pure nitrogen when the air we breathe is 78 percent nitrogen."
>
>
> Being a skeptic (and an engineer) I will and do question this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when a tire is mounted on a rim, doesn't "regular air" get trapped inside???? Even if pure Nitrogen is used to "pop" the tire bead onto the rim there's still "regular air" inside that will be mixed with the Nitrogen. Soooo, you don't end up with a tire filled with 100% Nitrogen. The only way to ensure 100% Nitrogen inside the tire is if the tire mounting machine were inside a sealed room filled with Nitrogen and the installer had to wear an Oxygen mask. Is that what the tire dealer purchases for $3,000 to $12,000 dollars? What am I missing here?
>
> What if it's Sunday night and my tire(s) are a few psi low? If the local Gas 'n Sip doesn't have Nitrogen, then what good is having Nitrogen in my tires?
> _______________________________________________
> Shotimes mailing list
> (email redacted)
> team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
_______________________________________________
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(email redacted)
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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Rich Bruso <(email redacted)>

Ooh, maybe the tire guys are investing in large, "nitrogen only" rooms for all of the seating and filling, and the workers will be wearing clean suits and oxygen tanks. That way, you could get a full nitrogen fill.
Of course, lead has a much more stable expansion/contraction than nitrogen, so maybe...

--
-Rich Bruso
89 Black (Lola)
89 Silver (parts)
Sierra Vista, AZ

---- Jon Heese <(email redacted)> wrote:

> Depending on how much vacuum they can put on the tire without the bead unsealing, it seems like it could get decently close to pure N2.
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Mail From: "Paul L Fisher" <(email redacted)>

I have been looking at one of these for grins and giggles and that is what
it does. It does it several times in a row. Suck out, fill with N2. Suck,
fill again. Eventually it get to over 98% and quits.


Paul L Fisher

Visit my website: paul-fisher.com
Amsoil dealer: paul-fisher.com/oil


-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
On Behalf Of Jon Heese
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:01 PM
To: (email redacted); (email redacted)
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires

I'm skeptical too, but here's one thing you missed:

The commercials I've heard on the radio for this say that they actually
suck the air out of the tires and replace it with N2.

So, they could push the tire onto the rim, pop it with air if they
wanted to, then suck (most of) the air out if it and refill it with N2.

Depending on how much vacuum they can put on the tire without the bead
unsealing, it seems like it could get decently close to pure N2.

I'm skeptical that it actually helps anything. Especially
cost/benefit-wise.

Regards,
Jon Heese

(email redacted) wrote:
> I know we talked about this on the list a while back.
>
>
> news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_bi_ge/nitrogen_tires
>
> "Skeptics will question how much can be gained by filling tires with pure
nitrogen when the air we breathe is 78 percent nitrogen."
>
>
> Being a skeptic (and an engineer) I will and do question this. Correct me
if I'm wrong, but when a tire is mounted on a rim, doesn't "regular air" get
trapped inside???? Even if pure Nitrogen is used to "pop" the tire bead
onto the rim there's still "regular air" inside that will be mixed with the
Nitrogen. Soooo, you don't end up with a tire filled with 100% Nitrogen.
The only way to ensure 100% Nitrogen inside the tire is if the tire mounting
machine were inside a sealed room filled with Nitrogen and the installer had
to wear an Oxygen mask. Is that what the tire dealer purchases for $3,000
to $12,000 dollars? What am I missing here?
>
> What if it's Sunday night and my tire(s) are a few psi low? If the local
Gas 'n Sip doesn't have Nitrogen, then what good is having Nitrogen in my
tires?
> _______________________________________________
> Shotimes mailing list
> (email redacted)
> team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
_______________________________________________
Shotimes mailing list
(email redacted)
team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes

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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "D. Mallinson" <(email redacted)>

What Ron said..... it is a waste for street cars, or even track day
cars. A pro driver in a pro race circuit maybe. Otherwise, use plain
old air.

Don Mallinson

Ron Porter wrote:

>Besides the marketing angle to make a few $$$, the only possible benefit are
>for clueless folks who never check their tire air (I can think of a few
>family members as I write this). They have a better chance of keeping a
>consistent tire pressure over the 6-12 months before the tires get checked
>again (most likely at oil change time).
>
>For the rest of us who check tires more regularly, it's a waste.
>
>Planes and race tires are the useful applications for it that I can see.
>
>Ron Porter
>
>I know we talked about this on the list a while back.
>
>
>news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_bi_ge/nitrogen_tires
>
>"Skeptics will question how much can be gained by filling tires with pure
>nitrogen when the air we breathe is 78 percent nitrogen."
>
>
>Being a skeptic (and an engineer) I will and do question this. Correct me
>if I'm wrong, but when a tire is mounted on a rim, doesn't "regular air" get
>trapped inside???? Even if pure Nitrogen is used to "pop" the tire bead
>onto the rim there's still "regular air" inside that will be mixed with the
>Nitrogen. Soooo, you don't end up with a tire filled with 100% Nitrogen.
>The only way to ensure 100% Nitrogen inside the tire is if the tire mounting
>machine were inside a sealed room filled with Nitrogen and the installer had
>to wear an Oxygen mask. Is that what the tire dealer purchases for $3,000
>to $12,000 dollars? What am I missing here?
>
>What if it's Sunday night and my tire(s) are a few psi low? If the local
>Gas 'n Sip doesn't have Nitrogen, then what good is having Nitrogen in my
>tires?
_______________________________________________
Shotimes mailing list
(email redacted)
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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: G Kerby Haltom <(email redacted)>

If we remember our Middle School science class...

Plain old air is 78% nitrogen to start with.

Kerby

"D. Mallinson" <(email redacted)> wrote: What Ron said..... it is a waste for street cars, or even track day
cars. A pro driver in a pro race circuit maybe. Otherwise, use plain
old air.

Don Mallinson

Ron Porter wrote:

>Besides the marketing angle to make a few $$$, the only possible benefit are
>for clueless folks who never check their tire air (I can think of a few
>family members as I write this). They have a better chance of keeping a
>consistent tire pressure over the 6-12 months before the tires get checked
>again (most likely at oil change time).
>
>For the rest of us who check tires more regularly, it's a waste.
>
>Planes and race tires are the useful applications for it that I can see.
>
>Ron Porter
>
>I know we talked about this on the list a while back.
>
>
>news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_bi_ge/nitrogen_tires
>
>"Skeptics will question how much can be gained by filling tires with pure
>nitrogen when the air we breathe is 78 percent nitrogen."
>
>
>Being a skeptic (and an engineer) I will and do question this. Correct me
>if I'm wrong, but when a tire is mounted on a rim, doesn't "regular air" get
>trapped inside???? Even if pure Nitrogen is used to "pop" the tire bead
>onto the rim there's still "regular air" inside that will be mixed with the
>Nitrogen. Soooo, you don't end up with a tire filled with 100% Nitrogen.
>The only way to ensure 100% Nitrogen inside the tire is if the tire mounting
>machine were inside a sealed room filled with Nitrogen and the installer had
>to wear an Oxygen mask. Is that what the tire dealer purchases for $3,000
>to $12,000 dollars? What am I missing here?
>
>What if it's Sunday night and my tire(s) are a few psi low? If the local
>Gas 'n Sip doesn't have Nitrogen, then what good is having Nitrogen in my
>tires?
_______________________________________________
Shotimes mailing list
(email redacted)
team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
_______________________________________________
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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Ron Childs <(email redacted)>

Also remembering maybe HS chemistry, all gases expand and contract the same amount with the same changes in temperature or pressure.

-Ron


----- Original Message ----
From: G Kerby Haltom <(email redacted)>
To: D. Mallinson <(email redacted)>; (email redacted)
Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2006 12:36:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires


If we remember our Middle School science class...

Plain old air is 78% nitrogen to start with.

Kerby

"D. Mallinson" <(email redacted)> wrote: What Ron said..... it is a waste for street cars, or even track day
cars. A pro driver in a pro race circuit maybe. Otherwise, use plain
old air.

Don Mallinson

Ron Porter wrote:

>Besides the marketing angle to make a few $$$, the only possible benefit are
>for clueless folks who never check their tire air (I can think of a few
>family members as I write this). They have a better chance of keeping a
>consistent tire pressure over the 6-12 months before the tires get checked
>again (most likely at oil change time).
>
>For the rest of us who check tires more regularly, it's a waste.
>
>Planes and race tires are the useful applications for it that I can see.
>
>Ron Porter
>
>I know we talked about this on the list a while back.
>
>
>news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_bi_ge/nitrogen_tires
>
>"Skeptics will question how much can be gained by filling tires with pure
>nitrogen when the air we breathe is 78 percent nitrogen."
>
>
>Being a skeptic (and an engineer) I will and do question this. Correct me
>if I'm wrong, but when a tire is mounted on a rim, doesn't "regular air" get
>trapped inside???? Even if pure Nitrogen is used to "pop" the tire bead
>onto the rim there's still "regular air" inside that will be mixed with the
>Nitrogen. Soooo, you don't end up with a tire filled with 100% Nitrogen.
>The only way to ensure 100% Nitrogen inside the tire is if the tire mounting
>machine were inside a sealed room filled with Nitrogen and the installer had
>to wear an Oxygen mask. Is that what the tire dealer purchases for $3,000
>to $12,000 dollars? What am I missing here?
>
>What if it's Sunday night and my tire(s) are a few psi low? If the local
>Gas 'n Sip doesn't have Nitrogen, then what good is having Nitrogen in my
>tires?
_______________________________________________
Shotimes mailing list
(email redacted)
team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
_______________________________________________
Shotimes mailing list
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team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Ian Fisher <(email redacted)>

Does anyone have any proof that its a waste (or know the actual benefits?) or are we just taking a stab in the dark here? Sure, air in my tires has worked for as long as I've been driving but that doesn't mean that nitrogen wouldn't work better wrt heat/wear/mileage/gas mileage, etc

Ian



"D. Mallinson" <(email redacted)> wrote: What Ron said..... it is a waste for street cars, or even track day
cars. A pro driver in a pro race circuit maybe. Otherwise, use plain
old air.

Don Mallinson

Ron Porter wrote:

>Besides the marketing angle to make a few $$$, the only possible benefit are
>for clueless folks who never check their tire air (I can think of a few
>family members as I write this). They have a better chance of keeping a
>consistent tire pressure over the 6-12 months before the tires get checked
>again (most likely at oil change time).
>
>For the rest of us who check tires more regularly, it's a waste.
>
>Planes and race tires are the useful applications for it that I can see.
>
>Ron Porter
>
>I know we talked about this on the list a while back.
>
>
>news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_bi_ge/nitrogen_tires
>
>"Skeptics will question how much can be gained by filling tires with pure
>nitrogen when the air we breathe is 78 percent nitrogen."
>
>
>Being a skeptic (and an engineer) I will and do question this. Correct me
>if I'm wrong, but when a tire is mounted on a rim, doesn't "regular air" get
>trapped inside???? Even if pure Nitrogen is used to "pop" the tire bead
>onto the rim there's still "regular air" inside that will be mixed with the
>Nitrogen. Soooo, you don't end up with a tire filled with 100% Nitrogen.
>The only way to ensure 100% Nitrogen inside the tire is if the tire mounting
>machine were inside a sealed room filled with Nitrogen and the installer had
>to wear an Oxygen mask. Is that what the tire dealer purchases for $3,000
>to $12,000 dollars? What am I missing here?
>
>What if it's Sunday night and my tire(s) are a few psi low? If the local
>Gas 'n Sip doesn't have Nitrogen, then what good is having Nitrogen in my
>tires?
_______________________________________________
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(email redacted)
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Mail From: Jon Heese <(email redacted)>

Actually, you're forgetting one important point.

The Ideal Gas Law says that for *any* gas:

PV = nRT

Where P = pressure, V = volume, T = temperature, n = number of moles of
the gas and R = some garbage constant to make the units fit.

So, looking at this equation, you can see that raising the temperature
(T) of the system will raise the pressure (P) and/or the volume (V).
The amounts of these two effects depends on the container, in this case,
the tire, but at least one of them must increase to make the equation work.

Now, the problem with your assertion that both "air" and nitrogen gas
have the same delta(PV) given the same delta(T) is that you're assuming
that the number of moles (n) of the two gases is the same. Thankfully
for Jason Hartberger, air is more dense than nitrogen gas, meaning that
V cubic centimeters of "air" contains more molecules than V cubic
centimeters of nitrogen gas.

So the theory that nitrogen-filled tires expand less under the same
increase in temperature actually holds.

Regards,
Jon Heese

Ron Childs wrote:
> Also remembering maybe HS chemistry, all gases expand and contract
> the same amount with the same changes in temperature or pressure.
>
> -Ron
>
>
> ----- Original Message ---- From: G Kerby Haltom
> <(email redacted)> To: D. Mallinson <(email redacted)>;
> (email redacted) Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2006 12:36:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires
>
>
> If we remember our Middle School science class...
>
> Plain old air is 78% nitrogen to start with.
>
> Kerby
>
> "D. Mallinson" <(email redacted)> wrote: What Ron said..... it is a
> waste for street cars, or even track day cars. A pro driver in a pro
> race circuit maybe. Otherwise, use plain old air.
>
> Don Mallinson
>
> Ron Porter wrote:
>
>> Besides the marketing angle to make a few $$$, the only possible
>> benefit are for clueless folks who never check their tire air (I
>> can think of a few family members as I write this). They have a
>> better chance of keeping a consistent tire pressure over the 6-12
>> months before the tires get checked again (most likely at oil
>> change time).
>>
>> For the rest of us who check tires more regularly, it's a waste.
>>
>> Planes and race tires are the useful applications for it that I can
>> see.
>>
>> Ron Porter
>>
>> I know we talked about this on the list a while back.
>>
>>
>> news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_bi_ge/nitrogen_tires
>>
>> "Skeptics will question how much can be gained by filling tires
>> with pure nitrogen when the air we breathe is 78 percent nitrogen."
>>
>>
>>
>> Being a skeptic (and an engineer) I will and do question this.
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but when a tire is mounted on a rim,
>> doesn't "regular air" get trapped inside???? Even if pure Nitrogen
>> is used to "pop" the tire bead onto the rim there's still "regular
>> air" inside that will be mixed with the Nitrogen. Soooo, you don't
>> end up with a tire filled with 100% Nitrogen. The only way to
>> ensure 100% Nitrogen inside the tire is if the tire mounting
>> machine were inside a sealed room filled with Nitrogen and the
>> installer had to wear an Oxygen mask. Is that what the tire dealer
>> purchases for $3,000 to $12,000 dollars? What am I missing here?
>>
>> What if it's Sunday night and my tire(s) are a few psi low? If the
>> local Gas 'n Sip doesn't have Nitrogen, then what good is having
>> Nitrogen in my tires?
> _______________________________________________ Shotimes mailing list
> (email redacted)
> team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
> _______________________________________________ Shotimes mailing list
> (email redacted)
> team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
> _______________________________________________ Shotimes mailing list
> (email redacted)
> team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
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Mail From: "Ron Porter" <(email redacted)>

The proof that it's a waste in most situations has to do with it's benefits.
A Google search will probably tell you what you want.

Nitrogen is more stable, and not given to fluctuations. IIRC, it's also a
bigger molecule, so it doesn't leak as easily.

For race cars, it will keep the pressure more consistent. For clueless
"car-as-appliance" folks who never check their own air, it will tend to keep
the tires closer to a good pressure, giving them better mileage and less
tire wear.

The only benefit for less wear and better mileage is to keep the tires at a
better pressure for a longer period of time. If you check your tires every
few weeks, or even once a month, you would see no benefit.

Ron Porter

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
On Behalf Of Ian Fisher
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:20 PM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires

Does anyone have any proof that its a waste (or know the actual benefits?)
or are we just taking a stab in the dark here? Sure, air in my tires has
worked for as long as I've been driving but that doesn't mean that nitrogen
wouldn't work better wrt heat/wear/mileage/gas mileage, etc

Ian



"D. Mallinson" <(email redacted)> wrote: What Ron said..... it is a waste
for street cars, or even track day
cars. A pro driver in a pro race circuit maybe. Otherwise, use plain
old air.

Don Mallinson

Ron Porter wrote:

>Besides the marketing angle to make a few $$$, the only possible benefit
are
>for clueless folks who never check their tire air (I can think of a few
>family members as I write this). They have a better chance of keeping a
>consistent tire pressure over the 6-12 months before the tires get checked
>again (most likely at oil change time).
>
>For the rest of us who check tires more regularly, it's a waste.
>
>Planes and race tires are the useful applications for it that I can see.
>
>Ron Porter
>
>I know we talked about this on the list a while back.
>
>
>news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_bi_ge/nitrogen_tires
>
>"Skeptics will question how much can be gained by filling tires with pure
>nitrogen when the air we breathe is 78 percent nitrogen."
>
>
>Being a skeptic (and an engineer) I will and do question this. Correct me
>if I'm wrong, but when a tire is mounted on a rim, doesn't "regular air"
get
>trapped inside???? Even if pure Nitrogen is used to "pop" the tire bead
>onto the rim there's still "regular air" inside that will be mixed with the
>Nitrogen. Soooo, you don't end up with a tire filled with 100% Nitrogen.
>The only way to ensure 100% Nitrogen inside the tire is if the tire
mounting
>machine were inside a sealed room filled with Nitrogen and the installer
had
>to wear an Oxygen mask. Is that what the tire dealer purchases for $3,000
>to $12,000 dollars? What am I missing here?
>
>What if it's Sunday night and my tire(s) are a few psi low? If the local
>Gas 'n Sip doesn't have Nitrogen, then what good is having Nitrogen in my
>tires?
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Mail From: Jason Hartberger <(email redacted)>

So... theoretically speaking, then, since helium has an even lower
density than either nitrogen or regular air, then it would react the
least to temperature changes, right? AND, it would make your car lighter
cos it's helium! I may be onto something here... obviously hydrogen is
(the only thing) lighter than helium but most people associate hydrogen
with 'bomb' or 'hindenburg' so that wouldn't be a very good selling
point... helium tires? anybody?

Jason


Jon Heese wrote:
> Actually, you're forgetting one important point.
>
> The Ideal Gas Law says that for *any* gas:
>
> PV = nRT
>
> Where P = pressure, V = volume, T = temperature, n = number of moles
> of the gas and R = some garbage constant to make the units fit.
>
> So, looking at this equation, you can see that raising the temperature
> (T) of the system will raise the pressure (P) and/or the volume (V).
> The amounts of these two effects depends on the container, in this
> case, the tire, but at least one of them must increase to make the
> equation work.
>
> Now, the problem with your assertion that both "air" and nitrogen gas
> have the same delta(PV) given the same delta(T) is that you're
> assuming that the number of moles (n) of the two gases is the same.
> Thankfully for Jason Hartberger, air is more dense than nitrogen gas,
> meaning that V cubic centimeters of "air" contains more molecules than
> V cubic centimeters of nitrogen gas.
>
> So the theory that nitrogen-filled tires expand less under the same
> increase in temperature actually holds.
>
> Regards,
> Jon Heese
>
> Ron Childs wrote:
>> Also remembering maybe HS chemistry, all gases expand and contract
>> the same amount with the same changes in temperature or pressure.
>>
>> -Ron
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Mail From: "Paul Nimz" <(email redacted)>

But would pass right through the rubber. They used it to check sealed
batteries as it was the easiest thing to leak out and be readily detected.

Paul


On 8/1/2006 10:35:20 PM, Jason Hartberger ((email redacted)) wrote:
> So... theoretically speaking, then, since helium has an even lower
> density than either nitrogen or regular air, then it would react the
> least to temperature changes, right? AND, it would make your car lighter
> cos
> it's helium! I may be onto something here... obviously hydrogen is
> (the only thing) lighter than helium but most people associate hydrogen
> with 'bomb' or 'hindenburg' so that wouldn't
> be a very good selling
> point... helium tires? anybody?
>
> Jason
>
>
> Jon Heese wrote:
> > Actually,
> you're forgetting one important point.
> >
> > The Ideal Gas Law says that for *any* gas:
> >
> > PV = nRT
> >
> > Where P = pressure, V = volume, T = temperature, n = number of moles
> > of the gas and R = some garbage constant to make the units fit.
> >
> > So, looking at this equation, you can see that raising the temperature
> > (T) of the system will raise the pressure (P) and/or the volume (V).
> > The amounts of these two effects depends on the container, in this
> > case, the tire, but at least one of them must increase to make the
> > equation work.
> >
> > Now, the problem with your assertion that both "air" and nitroge
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Mail From: "Paul Nimz" <(email redacted)>

Fill them with H2 and then a blow out would really be a blow out.!!

Paul


On 8/1/2006 10:54:59 PM, Paul Nimz ((email redacted)) wrote:
> But would pass right through the rubber. They used it to check sealed
> batteries as it was the easiest thing to leak out and be readily detected.
>
>
> Paul
>
>
> On 8/1/2006 10:35:20 PM, Jason Hartberger ((email redacted)) wrote:
> > So... theoretically speaking, then, since helium has an even lower
> > density than either nitrogen or regular air, then it would react the
> > least to temperature changes, right? AND, it would make your car
> lighter
> > cos
> >
> it's helium! I may be onto something here... obviously hydrogen is
> > (the only thing) lighter than helium but most people associate hydrogen
> > with 'bomb' or 'hindenburg' so that wouldn't
> > be a very good selling
> > point... helium tires? anybody?
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> > Jon Heese wrote:
> > > Actually,
> > you're forgetting one important point.
> > >
> > > The Ideal Gas Law says that for *any* gas:
> > >
> > > PV = nRT
> > >
> > > Where P = pressure, V = volume, T = temperature, n = number of moles
> > > of the gas and R = some garbage constant to make the units fit.
> > >
> > > So, looking at this equation, you can
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Mail From: "van Oss" <(email redacted)>

That's all the SHO community needs, its own Hindenburg. Oh the humanity...
VO


----- Original Message -----
Fill them with H2 and then a blow out would really be a blow out.!!
Paul
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Mail From: Ron Childs <(email redacted)>

He's baaack! Welcome back Joe.

-Ron


----- Original Message ----
From: van Oss <(email redacted)>
To: Paul Nimz <(email redacted)>; `V6 SHOtimes <(email redacted)>
Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2006 9:18:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires

That's all the SHO community needs, its own Hindenburg. Oh the humanity...
VO


----- Original Message -----
Fill them with H2 and then a blow out would really be a blow out.!!
Paul
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Mail From: "Sean Simons" <(email redacted)>

Hmmm, what about filling your spare with N2O? You'd have a super stealth
nitrous oxide container.

Sean Simons

On 8/1/06, Ron Childs <(email redacted)> wrote:
>
> He's baaack! Welcome back Joe.
>
> -Ron
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: van Oss <(email redacted)>
> To: Paul Nimz <(email redacted)>; `V6 SHOtimes <(email redacted)>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2006 9:18:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires
>
> That's all the SHO community needs, its own Hindenburg. Oh the
> humanity...
> VO
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Fill them with H2 and then a blow out would really be a blow out.!!
> Paul
> _______________________________________________
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Mail From: James White <(email redacted)>

Back in the early days of NASCAR, I think that it was Fireball Roberts
that filled his roll cage with N2O. A little extra juice for the
sprint to the checker.

regards, Jim White


At Friday, 4 August 2006, "Sean Simons" <(email redacted)> wrote:

>Hmmm, what about filling your spare with N2O? You'd have a super
stealth
>nitrous oxide container.
>
>Sean Simons
>
>On 8/1/06, Ron Childs <(email redacted)> wrote:
>>
>> He's baaack! Welcome back Joe.
>>
>> -Ron
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: van Oss <(email redacted)>
>> To: Paul Nimz <(email redacted)>; `V6 SHOtimes <SHOtimes@autox.
team.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2006 9:18:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires
>>
>> That's all the SHO community needs, its own Hindenburg. Oh the
>> humanity...
>> VO
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> Fill them with H2 and then a blow out would really be a blow out.!!
>> Paul
>> _______________________________________________
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Mail From: "Kerby Haltom" <(email redacted)>

And another reason to call him "fireball"...

Kerby

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
On Behalf Of James White
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 8:14 AM
To: shotimes
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires

Back in the early days of NASCAR, I think that it was Fireball Roberts
that filled his roll cage with N2O. A little extra juice for the
sprint to the checker.

regards, Jim White


At Friday, 4 August 2006, "Sean Simons" <(email redacted)> wrote:

>Hmmm, what about filling your spare with N2O? You'd have a super
stealth
>nitrous oxide container.
>
>Sean Simons
>
>On 8/1/06, Ron Childs <(email redacted)> wrote:
>>
>> He's baaack! Welcome back Joe.
>>
>> -Ron
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: van Oss <(email redacted)>
>> To: Paul Nimz <(email redacted)>; `V6 SHOtimes <SHOtimes@autox.
team.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2006 9:18:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires
>>
>> That's all the SHO community needs, its own Hindenburg. Oh the
>> humanity...
>> VO
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> Fill them with H2 and then a blow out would really be a blow out.!!
>> Paul
>> _______________________________________________
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>> team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
>> _______________________________________________
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>> team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
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Mail From: "Ron Porter" <(email redacted)>

Not sure that ~900 psi (which is what I believe the N2O tanks run at) would
work too well in a spare tire!!

Ron Porter

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
On Behalf Of Sean Simons
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 8:21 AM
To: shotimes
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires

Hmmm, what about filling your spare with N2O? You'd have a super stealth
nitrous oxide container.

Sean Simons

On 8/1/06, Ron Childs <(email redacted)> wrote:
>
> He's baaack! Welcome back Joe.
>
> -Ron
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: van Oss <(email redacted)>
> To: Paul Nimz <(email redacted)>; `V6 SHOtimes <(email redacted)>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2006 9:18:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires
>
> That's all the SHO community needs, its own Hindenburg. Oh the
> humanity...
> VO
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Fill them with H2 and then a blow out would really be a blow out.!!
> Paul
> _______________________________________________
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Mail From: "mash4" <(email redacted)>

I read through almost all the posts on this and the one thing no one seems
to have mentioned is Nitrogen is dry. Shop air has water in it, hence the
filters/water sumps bolted upstream from the manifolds. The only good reason
that makes sense to me to use Nitrogen would be to keep water out of the
inside of the tire which in theory would help stop the rubber from rotting
from the inside out. Whether this is a real concern remains to be seen, but
having worked with Nitrogen in the Aerospace industry the main reason it is
used is due to its lack of moisture.

Mark M.
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Mail From: "Ron Porter" <(email redacted)>

Shop compressors, like my compressor at home, should have filters/separators
to keep water out of the line. Not so much for the tires, but to keep water
out of the air tools.

FWIW, tires rotting from the inside are the least of my worries. I don't
want a set of tires on the car for more than two years, anyway. And I have
never met anyone who has had trouble with older tires from rotting inside.

Ron Porter

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
On Behalf Of mash4
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 2:32 AM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: RE: [Shotimes] Nitrogen-filled tires

I read through almost all the posts on this and the one thing no one seems
to have mentioned is Nitrogen is dry. Shop air has water in it, hence the
filters/water sumps bolted upstream from the manifolds. The only good reason
that makes sense to me to use Nitrogen would be to keep water out of the
inside of the tire which in theory would help stop the rubber from rotting
from the inside out. Whether this is a real concern remains to be seen, but
having worked with Nitrogen in the Aerospace industry the main reason it is
used is due to its lack of moisture.

Mark M.
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Mail From: "D. Mallinson" <(email redacted)>

Mark,

I addressed this issue, the amount of water vapor in air in tires is
minimal, and I have taken off some really old tires used on both daily
drivers and stored collector cars and never found the rim or the tire to
have any deterioration. The steel rims used on older cars should be a
dead giveaway if the moisture is to contribute to any deterioration at
all, and every rim I have ever had on an old car was pristine on the
inside, even if the outside was totally rusty.

The moisture angle should be of zero concern on tires that are changed
every year or every few years, if it makes no difference on tires that
are 20+ years old!

Don Mallinson

mash4 wrote:

>I read through almost all the posts on this and the one thing no one seems
>to have mentioned is Nitrogen is dry. Shop air has water in it, hence the
>filters/water sumps bolted upstream from the manifolds. The only good reason
>that makes sense to me to use Nitrogen would be to keep water out of the
>inside of the tire which in theory would help stop the rubber from rotting
>from the inside out. Whether this is a real concern remains to be seen, but
>having worked with Nitrogen in the Aerospace industry the main reason it is
>used is due to its lack of moisture.
>
>Mark M.
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