Classic Mustangs List Archive

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Mail From: mustang (Brandon Peskin)

Yeah I just googled that up and tested it out.

Taking a piece of paper and slipping it down in front of the radiator
when the engine is running and the paper sticks to it with suction
from the fan. Flex-a-lite's website suggests these are PULLER fans not
pushers.

Whew, I thought I had the Darwin award there. Sorry for the fire drill!


On another note: It seems to be MUCH worse (ie heats up faster) when
idling in gear (or foot on the brake in traffic, drive thru, etc)
versus when the car is in park. Why is this? Hotter transmission
fluid in the bottom?


On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:37 PM, Mike H wrote:

> The fan is supposed to suck air through the radiator, not push it.
> If air is blowing toward the engine (like your post says it does)
> then it is correct.

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Mail From: mahilly (Mike H)

Perhaps you have the wrong aftermarket fan for your car? Meaning it doesn't
flow enough air at idle RPM's. Theoretically, a fan is only needed when
idling. At higher speeds air is being forced through the radiator as your
car slices it's way through the air, making the fan less necessary
(theoretically that is). This is also one of the principles behind fan
clutches. The clutch engages at lower RPM's (also at higher temps) making
the fan spin as fast as the pulley shaft. Rev the engine and the fan flows
more air but also increases resistance on the pulley shaft such that
the clutch disengages and allows the fan to spin freely yet slower than
the shaft, thus less air flow (created by the fan) at higher RPM/speed.
Flex fans provide a similar result - at higher RPM's the blades flatten out
which reduces air flow and mechanical resistance on the engine. Check the
specs on the fan you are using, or try a fan that pushes more air. Maybe
change to a fan clutch? My 3 cents.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Mike H <mahilly at gmail.com> wrote:

> The fan is supposed to suck air through the radiator, not push it. If air
> is blowing toward the engine (like your post says it does) then it is
> correct.
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Brandon Peskin <mustang at peskin.org>wrote:
>
>> This is going to sound really, REALLY stupid, but I'm going to say it
>> and ask it anyway. If this turns out to be the problem I'm going to
>> feel like the dumbest a--hole this part of California:
>>
>> The overheating ONLY happens at low speeds and idle. On the freeway
>> its as cool as can be. I even have a shroud on there and it hasn't
>> made a bit of difference
>>
>> On my Flex-a-lite fan the label on one of the blades says
>>
>> "STANDARD ROTATION CW -> This side toward engine"
>>
>> HOWEVER, my engine is rotating the fan it OPPOSITE direction of that
>> arrow.
>>
>> I get more air blown back on the engine than I do toward and through
>> the radiator. Is this normal?
>>
>> I'm beginning to think this is my problem.
>>
>>
>> On Sep 10, 2009, at 8:44 PM, Brandon Peskin wrote:
>>
>> > Or idle in the street talking to the neighbor. My overheating gremlin
>> > is back. Ugh.
>> >
>> > Any of you know if the discount auto parts stores rent the pressure
>> > tester?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Classic-mustangs mailing list
>> Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca
>> lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>>
>> Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/
>>
>
>
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Mail From: W427 (David)

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Mail From: mustang (Brandon Peskin)

Flex-a-lite 1317, V-belt.

This is how it looked a few years ago, sans shroud:

tinyurl.com/nh6xfq

I'll snap a pic with the shroud in place this evening.


On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:00 AM, David wrote:

> What is the part number on your fan? Is your setup V-belt or
> serpentine? Perhaps a link to pics?
>
> David
>
> Brandon Peskin wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> On my Flex-a-lite fan the label on one of the blades says
>>
>> "STANDARD ROTATION CW -> This side toward engine"
>>
>> HOWEVER, my engine is rotating the fan it OPPOSITE direction of that
>> arrow.
> _______________________________________________
> Classic-mustangs mailing list
> Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca
> lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>
> Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/

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Mail From: ckelly (Chris Kelly)

Those are good fans - move a lot of air.

=====================================
Chris Kelly - ckelly at raceabilene.com
raceabilene.net/kelly/hotrod
Merkel, Texas
Member:
International Hot Rod Association
Abilene Performance Car Association
Falcon Club of America
=====================================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-
> bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Brandon Peskin
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 6:53 AM
> To: Chris Kelly
> Subject: Re: [CM] What is 'normal' operating water temperature?
>
> Flex-a-lite 1317, V-belt.
>
> This is how it looked a few years ago, sans shroud:
>
> tinyurl.com/nh6xfq
>
> I'll snap a pic with the shroud in place this evening.
>
>
> On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:00 AM, David wrote:
>
> > What is the part number on your fan? Is your setup V-belt or
> > serpentine? Perhaps a link to pics?
> >
> > David
> >

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Mail From: Lance (Lance Robaldo)

Um, Brandon...

You say the engine is rotating in the OPPOSITE direction from that arrow?
Are you talking about the arrow in the picture? tinyurl.com/nh6xfq


Because if you are, the engine absolutely SHOULD be rotating in the direction of
that arrow.


Lance.



->-----Original Message-----
->From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca [mailto:classic-mustangs-
->bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Brandon Peskin
->Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 7:53 AM
->To: RRobaldo at wltsoftware.com
->Subject: Re: [CM] What is 'normal' operating water temperature?
->
->Flex-a-lite 1317, V-belt.
->
->This is how it looked a few years ago, sans shroud:
->
->tinyurl.com/nh6xfq
->
->I'll snap a pic with the shroud in place this evening.
->
->
->On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:00 AM, David wrote:
->
->> What is the part number on your fan? Is your setup V-belt or
->> serpentine? Perhaps a link to pics?
->>
->> David
->>
->> Brandon Peskin wrote:
->>>
->>> ...
->>> On my Flex-a-lite fan the label on one of the blades says
->>>
->>> "STANDARD ROTATION CW -> This side toward engine"
->>>
->>> HOWEVER, my engine is rotating the fan it OPPOSITE direction of that
->>> arrow.
->> _______________________________________________
->> Classic-mustangs mailing list
->> Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca
->> lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
->>
->> Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/
->
->_______________________________________________
->Classic-mustangs mailing list
->Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca
->lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
->
->Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/

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Mail From: mustang (Brandon Peskin)

Yes, that arrow.

I'm going to look again when I get off work to be absolutely sure! :-)

As I stated last night after my brain fart: The fan is pulling air
THROUGH the radiator (I put a piece of paper down between the grill
and the radiator and it immediately gets sucked against the radiator).


I've had the low-speed overheating problem almost the whole time I've
had the car. In the space between the first time I noticed the car
overheating in traffic (right after I changed the water pump which was
my first water pump change, ever), and now (spanning ~ 4 years and
about 12K miles) I have:

- Installed the flex-a-lite fan
- Installed a new 3-row radiator
- Installed a fan shroud
- Replaced the temperature sending unit
- Replaced the heater core and hoses (the heater blows piping hot and
always has)
- Added an overflow bottle (it's worth noting I've only seen the
radiator throw up ONCE in these past 4 years). NEVER under any
temperature reading has the radiator barfed into the overflow tank.
- Moved from a 13lb cap to a 16lb cap (this past weekend)
- Installed a new 180F thermostat, and made sure it was installed the
right way (this past weekend)


The setup is now:

- Flex-a-lite 1317 17" flex fan
- 180F Milodon thermostat
- 16lb Summit Racing radiator cap
- 3 row standard copper/brass radiator
- Fiberglass fan shroud (the fan sticks out of the shroud roughly
halfway -- pictures tonight)

Some other progress and ideas:


1. I've got a mechanic friend coming over with a cooling system
pressure tester this evening.

2. My water pump is a run-of-the-mill discount auto parts store
special. I bought the car (it had been sitting and not driven often
with the previous owner) and within a week of owning it the water pump
started leaking around the bearings. Being brand new to auto mechanics
in general I went out and bought what I thought was a correct
replacement water pump from the auto parts store (read: what was
correct in their computer which we all know by now doesn't mean a
thing...). I don't recall really having any overheating issues the
VERY short period I had the car with the old water pump in it (NOTE:
the car was ALSO missing its thermostat as I discovered during water
pump replacement), so maybe an upgraded water pump is something I need
to try -- maybe this one isn't moving enough coolant. Since my
problems are at low engine speeds only this might hold a bit of merit.
Any recommendations on a pump?

3. I'm going to double check my timing this evening. My headers aren't
glowing or anything drastic like that but maybe I'm a bit off and
that's causing me to run hot.

4. Have any of you seen a sending unit (or the wiring leading to it)
misbehave under high temperature conditions? One theory I had while
staring into space and considering this was that the wire to the
sending unit was heating up and causing the gauge/unit to report a
higher temp than there actually was. Given I've seen this
`overheating' behavior with both the factory and now an aftermarket
gauge (and I installed a brand new wire and sending unit with said
aftermarket gauge) this theory is a bit diminished.


On Sep 11, 2009, at 6:46 AM, Lance Robaldo wrote:

> You say the engine is rotating in the OPPOSITE direction from that
> arrow?
> Are you talking about the arrow in the picture? tinyurl.com/nh6xfq

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Mail From: keven (Coates, Keven)

>Taking a piece of paper and slipping it down in front of the radiator
when the engine is running and the paper sticks to it with suction
from the fan. Flex-a-lite's website suggests these are PULLER fans not
pushers.

This doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. Sure it may be pulling air, but how much is the question. If the fan blades are not made for the direction they're turning, they're going to do a horrible job of pulling air.

Think of your right hand. If you take your right hand and curl your fingers towards your left hand, the blade is meant to scoop, like moving your hand towards your left hand. Now turn your fingers (still on your right hand) in the opposite direction and move it in the same way. You can still move air that way, maybe even in the right direction, but it's not scooping and will work horribly. It will cause more of a rotating air than a pulling air.

Keven

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Mail From: zrichter (Z. Ray)


what he said.

Z. Ray
'66 GT-350



>
>> Taking a piece of paper and slipping it down in front of the radiator
> when the engine is running and the paper sticks to it with suction
> from the fan. Flex-a-lite's website suggests these are PULLER fans not
> pushers.
>
> This doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. Sure it may be pulling
> air, but how much is the question. If the fan blades are not made
> for the direction they're turning, they're going to do a horrible
> job of pulling air.
>
> Think of your right hand. If you take your right hand and curl
> your fingers towards your left hand, the blade is meant to scoop,
> like moving your hand towards your left hand. Now turn your
> fingers (still on your right hand) in the opposite direction and
> move it in the same way. You can still move air that way, maybe
> even in the right direction, but it's not scooping and will work
> horribly. It will cause more of a rotating air than a pulling air.
>
> Keven

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Mail From: mustang (Brandon Peskin)

Good point.

Facing the engine (that is, standing in front of the fan looking AT
the fan) the engine should rotate clockwise. It has to --- right?
When you tighten the harmonic bolt it turns the crank unless you put
something in there to hold it. Given that, and the direction of the
arrow (judging by the picture not what my brain thought it saw last
night) then the engine and the arrow are in the right direction.

The little label with the arrow on it also says STANDARD ROTATION on it.


On Sep 11, 2009, at 7:21 AM, Coates, Keven wrote:

> This doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. Sure it may be pulling
> air, but how much is the question. If the fan blades are not made
> for the direction they're turning, they're going to do a horrible
> job of pulling air.

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Mail From: benw (Ben Witso)

Mine does that too - I'm thinking it's just RPM. If I take it out of
gear and rev it up a little it doesn't heat up as fast as if I just
leave it in gear with my foot on the brake.

On Sep 10, 2009, at 11:48 PM, Brandon Peskin wrote:

> On another note: It seems to be MUCH worse (ie heats up faster) when
> idling in gear (or foot on the brake in traffic, drive thru, etc)
> versus when the car is in park. Why is this? Hotter transmission
> fluid in the bottom?

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Mail From: benw (Ben Witso)

I've done pretty much all you have plus I've installed the flow disc
on the water pump impeller and am running water wetter. Mine hasn't
boiled over, but I should probably say that I don't let it get hot
enough to boil over. Once it's warmed up - if I let it idle in park
it will get hot enough to boil over after a few minutes (5 or so?).
Faster if it's in gear and I'm at a light or sitting for some reason.
It will generally cool down once it starts moving at higher speeds,
but after driving for 45 minutes or so, the overall temp starts
inching up. My mechanic friend swears by 160 deg t-stats so that's
what I've been running. I've tried a couple of different (new) ones -
and verified they operate correctly by testing in heated water on the
stove. I've also tried a few different (new) radiator caps - but
again only the 13lb so far. Maybe I'll swap them out to 180deg and
16lb next. At this point I'm 99% sure they won't make a difference -
I'm thinking I need to pull the motor and have it gone through. If
you find something that works let us know - I've been procrastinating
doing the motor as I have other Mustang projects I'd rather be
working on.

On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:13 AM, Brandon Peskin wrote:

> Yes, that arrow.
>
> I'm going to look again when I get off work to be absolutely sure! :-)
>
> As I stated last night after my brain fart: The fan is pulling air
> THROUGH the radiator (I put a piece of paper down between the grill
> and the radiator and it immediately gets sucked against the radiator).
>
>
> I've had the low-speed overheating problem almost the whole time I've
> had the car. In the space between the first time I noticed the car
> overheating in traffic (right after I changed the water pump which was
> my first water pump change, ever), and now (spanning ~ 4 years and
> about 12K miles) I have:
>
> - Installed the flex-a-lite fan
> - Installed a new 3-row radiator
> - Installed a fan shroud
> - Replaced the temperature sending unit
> - Replaced the heater core and hoses (the heater blows piping hot and
> always has)
> - Added an overflow bottle (it's worth noting I've only seen the
> radiator throw up ONCE in these past 4 years). NEVER under any
> temperature reading has the radiator barfed into the overflow tank.
> - Moved from a 13lb cap to a 16lb cap (this past weekend)
> - Installed a new 180F thermostat, and made sure it was installed the
> right way (this past weekend)
>
>
> The setup is now:
>
> - Flex-a-lite 1317 17" flex fan
> - 180F Milodon thermostat
> - 16lb Summit Racing radiator cap
> - 3 row standard copper/brass radiator
> - Fiberglass fan shroud (the fan sticks out of the shroud roughly
> halfway -- pictures tonight)
>
> Some other progress and ideas:
>
>
> 1. I've got a mechanic friend coming over with a cooling system
> pressure tester this evening.
>
> 2. My water pump is a run-of-the-mill discount auto parts store
> special. I bought the car (it had been sitting and not driven often
> with the previous owner) and within a week of owning it the water pump
> started leaking around the bearings. Being brand new to auto mechanics
> in general I went out and bought what I thought was a correct
> replacement water pump from the auto parts store (read: what was
> correct in their computer which we all know by now doesn't mean a
> thing...). I don't recall really having any overheating issues the
> VERY short period I had the car with the old water pump in it (NOTE:
> the car was ALSO missing its thermostat as I discovered during water
> pump replacement), so maybe an upgraded water pump is something I need
> to try -- maybe this one isn't moving enough coolant. Since my
> problems are at low engine speeds only this might hold a bit of merit.
> Any recommendations on a pump?
>
> 3. I'm going to double check my timing this evening. My headers aren't
> glowing or anything drastic like that but maybe I'm a bit off and
> that's causing me to run hot.
>
> 4. Have any of you seen a sending unit (or the wiring leading to it)
> misbehave under high temperature conditions? One theory I had while
> staring into space and considering this was that the wire to the
> sending unit was heating up and causing the gauge/unit to report a
> higher temp than there actually was. Given I've seen this
> `overheating' behavior with both the factory and now an aftermarket
> gauge (and I installed a brand new wire and sending unit with said
> aftermarket gauge) this theory is a bit diminished.
>
>
> On Sep 11, 2009, at 6:46 AM, Lance Robaldo wrote:
>
>> You say the engine is rotating in the OPPOSITE direction from that
>> arrow?
>> Are you talking about the arrow in the picture? tinyurl.com/
>> nh6xfq
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classic-mustangs mailing list
> Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca
> lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>
> Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/

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Mail From: keven (Coates, Keven)

It heats up faster in drive since it's not only heating up the tranny more (and the radiator then), but the water pump and fan are going slower, slowing the heat transfer.

Keven

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: keven (Coates, Keven)

The fact that your radiator hasn't barfed makes me think that your system isn't boiling (or doesn't have enough water in it, but I'm assuming that isn't true). That's a good thing, maybe. I'm wondering how accurate your gauge is. I know you replaced your sending unit, but do you know you have a problem?

Also, FWIW, I've found that 16 lbs caps seem to be hard on these radiators.

>3. I'm going to double check my timing this evening. My headers aren't
glowing or anything drastic like that but maybe I'm a bit off and
that's causing me to run hot.

I doubt this is it. The timing would have to be really off.

>One theory I had while
staring into space and considering this was that the wire to the
sending unit was heating up and causing the gauge/unit to report a
higher temp than there actually was.

If it's electric, the wire temp won't make any difference. If it's mechanical, this is possible I suppose if it's running by the headers or something.

Keven

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Mail From: ckelly (raceabilene)

Hmm overheating after waterpump change? Are you sure you have the
right pump on there and not a reverse rotation pump?

On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:13 AM, Brandon Peskin <mustang at peskin.org> wrote:

> Yes, that arrow.
>
> I'm going to look again when I get off work to be absolutely sure! :-)
>
> As I stated last night after my brain fart: The fan is pulling air
> THROUGH the radiator (I put a piece of paper down between the grill
> and the radiator and it immediately gets sucked against the radiator).
>
>
> I've had the low-speed overheating problem almost the whole time I've
> had the car. In the space between the first time I noticed the car
> overheating in traffic (right after I changed the water pump which was
> my first water pump change, ever), and now (spanning ~ 4 years and
> about 12K miles) I have:
>
> - Installed the flex-a-lite fan
> - Installed a new 3-row radiator
> - Installed a fan shroud
> - Replaced the temperature sending unit
> - Replaced the heater core and hoses (the heater blows piping hot and
> always has)
> - Added an overflow bottle (it's worth noting I've only seen the
> radiator throw up ONCE in these past 4 years). NEVER under any
> temperature reading has the radiator barfed into the overflow tank.
> - Moved from a 13lb cap to a 16lb cap (this past weekend)
> - Installed a new 180F thermostat, and made sure it was installed the
> right way (this past weekend)
>
>
> The setup is now:
>
> - Flex-a-lite 1317 17" flex fan
> - 180F Milodon thermostat
> - 16lb Summit Racing radiator cap
> - 3 row standard copper/brass radiator
> - Fiberglass fan shroud (the fan sticks out of the shroud roughly
> halfway -- pictures tonight)
>
> Some other progress and ideas:
>
>
> 1. I've got a mechanic friend coming over with a cooling system
> pressure tester this evening.
>
> 2. My water pump is a run-of-the-mill discount auto parts store
> special. I bought the car (it had been sitting and not driven often
> with the previous owner) and within a week of owning it the water pump
> started leaking around the bearings. Being brand new to auto mechanics
> in general I went out and bought what I thought was a correct
> replacement water pump from the auto parts store (read: what was
> correct in their computer which we all know by now doesn't mean a
> thing...). I don't recall really having any overheating issues the
> VERY short period I had the car with the old water pump in it (NOTE:
> the car was ALSO missing its thermostat as I discovered during water
> pump replacement), so maybe an upgraded water pump is something I need
> to try -- maybe this one isn't moving enough coolant. Since my
> problems are at low engine speeds only this might hold a bit of merit.
> Any recommendations on a pump?
>
> 3. I'm going to double check my timing this evening. My headers aren't
> glowing or anything drastic like that but maybe I'm a bit off and
> that's causing me to run hot.
>
> 4. Have any of you seen a sending unit (or the wiring leading to it)
> misbehave under high temperature conditions? One theory I had while
> staring into space and considering this was that the wire to the
> sending unit was heating up and causing the gauge/unit to report a
> higher temp than there actually was. Given I've seen this
> `overheating' behavior with both the factory and now an aftermarket
> gauge (and I installed a brand new wire and sending unit with said
> aftermarket gauge) this theory is a bit diminished.
>
>
> On Sep 11, 2009, at 6:46 AM, Lance Robaldo wrote:
>
>> You say the engine is rotating in the OPPOSITE direction from that
>> arrow?
>> Are you talking about the arrow in the picture? tinyurl.com/nh6xfq
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classic-mustangs mailing list
> Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca
> lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>
> Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: keven (Coates, Keven)

>Hmm overheating after waterpump change? Are you sure you have the
right pump on there and not a reverse rotation pump?

That's possible. I've also heard of impellors actually falling off (although it's got to be rare)!

Keven

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: mustang (Brandon Peskin)

95% sure I spun the impeller in the direction of the engine rotation
when installing the shroud (had radiator out) to make sure it was
rotating freely and it spewed out coolant turned one way (the
direction the engine rotates) and not the other. If I open it up this
weekend to re-seal everything and check the thermostat I'll certainly
test that.

I know when I first installed it a few years ago I didn't tighten the
upper hose where it meets the water neck and the water pump *pumped*
the coolant all over the place until there was no more and made noise
because it was dry.


On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:20 AM, raceabilene wrote:

> Hmm overheating after waterpump change? Are you sure you have the
> right pump on there and not a reverse rotation pump?

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: keven (Coates, Keven)

Good, sounds like the impeller is or at least, was on there well enough to pump. It still could be going in the wrong direction for the blades though. Similar thing to the fan, it may pump, but not pump well.

Given the fact that the early Mustang pulley setup is so radically different from the later models where they had reverse rotation I think it's unlikely that a later model pump would fit where the stock pump fits. It would most likely require a different timing cover and pulley setup. Knowing this I think it's unlikely this is your problem, but you never know until you check.

Keven

-----Original Message-----
I know when I first installed it a few years ago I didn't tighten the
upper hose where it meets the water neck and the water pump *pumped*
the coolant all over the place until there was no more and made noise
because it was dry.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: mustang (Brandon Peskin)


On Sep 11, 2009, at 8:31 AM, Coates, Keven wrote:

> The fact that your radiator hasn't barfed makes me think that your
> system isn't boiling (or doesn't have enough water in it, but I'm
> assuming that isn't true). That's a good thing, maybe. I'm
> wondering how accurate your gauge is. I know you replaced your
> sending unit, but do you know you have a problem?

I've changed both the gauge and sending unit with the persistent
problem.

This past weekend I boiled water on the stove and had the sending unit
out. I stuck the sending unit right in the water and the gauge went to
right around 210F. The behavioral pattern of the new gauge/sending
unit is the same as the old gauge/sending unit as far as creeping and
staying "hot". Only difference, now, is that I have real numbers
instead of C..............|....H or so it seems. The new gauge (for
the first time) pegged at 240F last night idling in the street in
Drive with my foot on the brake talking to the neighbor. This is
synonymous with times in the past doing this and the gauge would creep
up to H.


What is the proper filling procedure? I pulled the cap off after it
was overheating last night (suicide, I know) for that reason, and to
see if it would fart out any air to let me know the system is
pressurizing. The radiator is filled up to above the top row both hot
and cold.


>
> Also, FWIW, I've found that 16 lbs caps seem to be hard on these
> radiators.


Point noted.

I think I'm going to source a 195F thermostat this weekend too and try
that for giggles.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: michael.dinn (Michael 'Moose' Dinn)

> see if it would fart out any air to let me know the system is
> pressurizing. The radiator is filled up to above the top row both hot
> and cold.

Are your rad hoses squishy or hard when you're running at temperature?

if they're squishy, your system isn't pressurizing - and you don't need to
take the rad cap off to find out. :-)

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: dano (Dan O'Reilly)

Try setting your heater to full HOT and let the engine run until it gets
hot, with the cap off. You could have air trapped in the heating system.
You may belch some stuff on the floor, but it's good to find out.

You might also, when it's overheating, turn the heater to full HOT and turn
the blower fan on high. That can help lower the temp as well (remember, the
heater is just a small radiator). If memory serves, the proper thermostat
for a 289 is 160 degrees (at least for my '66 it was). I think a 195 is
just going to exacerbate the problem.

The other issues: make sure of your timing (too far advanced can cause this)
and of your mixture (too lean a mixture can do it too).


> -----Original Message-----
> From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
> [mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On
> Behalf Of Brandon Peskin
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 10:57 AM
> To: Dan O'Reilly
> Subject: Re: [CM] What is 'normal' operating water temperature?
>
>
> On Sep 11, 2009, at 8:31 AM, Coates, Keven wrote:
>
> > The fact that your radiator hasn't barfed makes me think that your
> > system isn't boiling (or doesn't have enough water in it, but I'm
> > assuming that isn't true). That's a good thing, maybe.
> I'm wondering
> > how accurate your gauge is. I know you replaced your sending unit,
> > but do you know you have a problem?
>
> I've changed both the gauge and sending unit with the
> persistent problem.
>
> This past weekend I boiled water on the stove and had the
> sending unit out. I stuck the sending unit right in the water
> and the gauge went to right around 210F. The behavioral
> pattern of the new gauge/sending unit is the same as the old
> gauge/sending unit as far as creeping and staying "hot". Only
> difference, now, is that I have real numbers instead of
> C..............|....H or so it seems. The new gauge (for the
> first time) pegged at 240F last night idling in the street in
> Drive with my foot on the brake talking to the neighbor. This
> is synonymous with times in the past doing this and the gauge
> would creep up to H.
>
>
> What is the proper filling procedure? I pulled the cap off
> after it was overheating last night (suicide, I know) for
> that reason, and to see if it would fart out any air to let
> me know the system is pressurizing. The radiator is filled up
> to above the top row both hot and cold.
>
>
> >
> > Also, FWIW, I've found that 16 lbs caps seem to be hard on these
> > radiators.
>
>
> Point noted.
>
> I think I'm going to source a 195F thermostat this weekend
> too and try
> that for giggles.
> _______________________________________________
> Classic-mustangs mailing list
> Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca
> lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>
> Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: mustang (Brandon Peskin)

Upper hose was a bit squishy last night. I'll know for sure tonight
when I get my hands on the pressure tester.


Also:

What should my in-gear idle speed be? What about neutral/park?

What should the difference in the two be?

If my RPM in gear at idle is higher than it should be, perhaps this
causes a problem?
On Sep 11, 2009, at 10:02 AM, Michael 'Moose' Dinn wrote:

> if they're squishy, your system isn't pressurizing - and you don't
> need to
> take the rad cap off to find out. :-)

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: michael.dinn (Michael 'Moose' Dinn)


> Upper hose was a bit squishy last night. I'll know for sure tonight
> when I get my hands on the pressure tester.

If you're overheating - or close to it - that hose should be quite hard - not
rock hard, maybe, but it shouldn't be squishy.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: mustang (Brandon Peskin)

Here comes the irony!

Blasting the heather has *never* made a difference in what the gauge
thinks the temperature of the engine is -- ever. Never lowered it
once in stop-and-go traffic.


On Sep 11, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Dan O'Reilly wrote:

> You might also, when it's overheating, turn the heater to full HOT
> and turn
> the blower fan on high. That can help lower the temp as well
> (remember, the
> heater is just a small radiator). If memory serves, the proper
> thermostat
> for a 289 is 160 degrees (at least for my '66 it was). I think a
> 195 is
> just going to exacerbate the problem.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: KalliPa1 (KalliPa1

Ever condeidered that the ''new'' water pump is faulty? It
happens....
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Mail From: rick (Rick Larson)

My thought the radiator wasn't completely filled. I'd fill it to the
top *and* the puke tank about 1/2.

rick 66 coupe (351w and original 289 radiator)
-----------------
>The fact that your radiator hasn't barfed makes me think that your
system isn't boiling (or doesn't have enough water in it, but I'm
assuming that isn't true).

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: shawkins777 (Steve Hawkins)

Maybe it would help if you told us what you mean by overheating.

Ste e

-----Original Message-----
From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Brandon
Peskin
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:13 AM
To: shawkins777 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [CM] What is 'normal' operating water temperature?


Yes, that arrow.

I'm going to look again when I get off work to be absolutely sure! :-)

As I stated last night after my brain fart: The fan is pulling air
THROUGH the radiator (I put a piece of paper down between the grill
and the radiator and it immediately gets sucked against the radiator).


I've had the low-speed overheating problem almost the whole time I've
had the car. In the space between the first time I noticed the car
overheating in traffic (right after I changed the water pump which was
my first water pump change, ever), and now (spanning ~ 4 years and
about 12K miles) I have:

- Installed the flex-a-lite fan
- Installed a new 3-row radiator
- Installed a fan shroud
- Replaced the temperature sending unit
- Replaced the heater core and hoses (the heater blows piping hot and
always has)
- Added an overflow bottle (it's worth noting I've only seen the
radiator throw up ONCE in these past 4 years). NEVER under any
temperature reading has the radiator barfed into the overflow tank.
- Moved from a 13lb cap to a 16lb cap (this past weekend)
- Installed a new 180F thermostat, and made sure it was installed the
right way (this past weekend)


The setup is now:

- Flex-a-lite 1317 17" flex fan
- 180F Milodon thermostat
- 16lb Summit Racing radiator cap
- 3 row standard copper/brass radiator
- Fiberglass fan shroud (the fan sticks out of the shroud roughly
halfway -- pictures tonight)

Some other progress and ideas:


1. I've got a mechanic friend coming over with a cooling system
pressure tester this evening.

2. My water pump is a run-of-the-mill discount auto parts store
special. I bought the car (it had been sitting and not driven often
with the previous owner) and within a week of owning it the water pump
started leaking around the bearings. Being brand new to auto mechanics
in general I went out and bought what I thought was a correct
replacement water pump from the auto parts store (read: what was
correct in their computer which we all know by now doesn't mean a
thing...). I don't recall really having any overheating issues the
VERY short period I had the car with the old water pump in it (NOTE:
the car was ALSO missing its thermostat as I discovered during water
pump replacement), so maybe an upgraded water pump is something I need
to try -- maybe this one isn't moving enough coolant. Since my
problems are at low engine speeds only this might hold a bit of merit.
Any recommendations on a pump?

3. I'm going to double check my timing this evening. My headers aren't
glowing or anything drastic like that but maybe I'm a bit off and
that's causing me to run hot.

4. Have any of you seen a sending unit (or the wiring leading to it)
misbehave under high temperature conditions? One theory I had while
staring into space and considering this was that the wire to the
sending unit was heating up and causing the gauge/unit to report a
higher temp than there actually was. Given I've seen this
`overheating' behavior with both the factory and now an aftermarket
gauge (and I installed a brand new wire and sending unit with said
aftermarket gauge) this theory is a bit diminished.


On Sep 11, 2009, at 6:46 AM, Lance Robaldo wrote:

> You say the engine is rotating in the OPPOSITE direction from that
> arrow?
> Are you talking about the arrow in the picture? tinyurl.com/nh6xfq

_______________________________________________
Classic-mustangs mailing list Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca
lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs

Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: shawkins777 (Steve Hawkins)

Do you have stock pulleys?

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Coates,
Keven
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:41 AM
To: shawkins777 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [CM] What is 'normal' operating water temperature?


Good, sounds like the impeller is or at least, was on there well enough to
pump. It still could be going in the wrong direction for the blades though.
Similar thing to the fan, it may pump, but not pump well.

Given the fact that the early Mustang pulley setup is so radically different
from the later models where they had reverse rotation I think it's unlikely
that a later model pump would fit where the stock pump fits. It would most
likely require a different timing cover and pulley setup. Knowing this I
think it's unlikely this is your problem, but you never know until you
check.

Keven

-----Original Message-----
I know when I first installed it a few years ago I didn't tighten the
upper hose where it meets the water neck and the water pump *pumped*
the coolant all over the place until there was no more and made noise
because it was dry. _______________________________________________
Classic-mustangs mailing list Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca
lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs

Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: ckelly (Chris Kelly)

Check the air in the tires? Maybe the battery is dead?

OK - I'll stop now

We're rained out at the track this weekend, so I don't get to test my fixes.
Also check for pressurization - I had to toss what seemed to be a good cap,
not the system holds pressure.

=====================================
Chris Kelly - ckelly at raceabilene.com
raceabilene.net/kelly/hotrod
Merkel, Texas
Member:
International Hot Rod Association
Abilene Performance Car Association
Falcon Club of America
=====================================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-
> bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Brandon Peskin
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:36 AM
> To: Chris Kelly
> Subject: Re: [CM] What is 'normal' operating water temperature?
>
> 95% sure I spun the impeller in the direction of the engine rotation
> when installing the shroud (had radiator out) to make sure it was
> rotating freely and it spewed out coolant turned one way (the
> direction the engine rotates) and not the other. If I open it up this
> weekend to re-seal everything and check the thermostat I'll certainly
> test that.
>
> I know when I first installed it a few years ago I didn't tighten the
> upper hose where it meets the water neck and the water pump *pumped*
> the coolant all over the place until there was no more and made noise
> because it was dry.
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: zrichter (Z. Ray)

it doesn't change the temp of my Mustang either. But I had a Fiat in
the'70's that technique worked great on .


Z. Ray
'66 GT-350




> Subject: Re: [CM] What is 'normal' operating water temperature?
> To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
> <classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca>
> Message-ID: <609FC83D-CCCB-4C6C-A3AE-7EE3589667D6 at peskin.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Here comes the irony!
>
> Blasting the heather has *never* made a difference in what the gauge
> thinks the temperature of the engine is -- ever. Never lowered it
> once in stop-and-go traffic.

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