Classic Mustangs List Archive

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Mail From: mustang (email redacted)

I've really learned a lot from this list and thank everyone for sharing
the knowledge they have.

I own a 72 coupe with a 302 2v and c4 automatic. The car has PS, PDB,
and A/C, with a Custom Autosound Kenwood stereo with trunk mounted CD
changer. I have put a lot of time, money, and effort into restoring this
car as far as the body, paint, interior and upholstery go, and have
probably spent more on it than it's worth, but isn't that how the story
goes. Now its time to start work on the engine.

When I start the car I get a large puff of grey smoke and even though
the car is a real looker, this tends to ruin the picture. The smoke goes
away after a few seconds and the engine doesn't smoke after that. I know
the reason is because the umbrella seals are gone and the valve guides
are probably worn and the oil drains down into the cylinders once the
car is shut off. Once this oil has burned off upon restarting, no more
smoke.

My question is this: Should I just have a valve job done, or should I
look into a complete rebuild? The engine seems to run fine otherwise,
and I've driven the car to several shows and events this past summer (75
to 100 miles each way, up to 75 mph!) with no breakdowns or overheating.
The car does have 190,000 miles on it.

I remember someone in the past on this list saying that a Ford dealer
would rebuild an engine to original factory specs for about $1200. Does
this sound reasonable? I'd like to spend as little as I have to because
next comes the front end rebuild.

Any and all suggestions, experience, and advice needed.


Thanks in advance,

Patrick Foley
Portland, Oregon
72 Mustang coupe
member "Mustangs Unlimited"
teleport.com/~classics/muonline/muonline.html

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: John M. Dettori (email redacted)

On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 01:40, mustang <(email redacted)> wrote:
>
> [...] 72 coupe w/302-2v and c4 automatic. [...] I have put a lot of
> time, money, and effort into restoring this car [...] its time to start
> work on the engine.
>
> When I start the car I get a large puff of grey smoke [...] the engine
> doesn't smoke after that[..] reason is because the umbrella seals are
> gone and the valve guides are probably worn and the oil drains down
> into the cylinders once the car is shut off[...]

Sounds like you are right.

> My question is this: Should I just have a valve job done, or should I
> look into a complete rebuild? The engine seems to run fine otherwise,
> and I've driven the car to several shows and events this past summer (75
> to 100 miles each way, up to 75 mph!) with no breakdowns or overheating.
> The car does have 190,000 miles on it.

190k! It deserves a rebuild.

Do you intend to keep this car? If, yes rebuild. You'll be happier
with a fresh engine, and the peace of mind that comes with it, perhaps
even a warranty. And if you decide to sell, your car is more valueable.
Plus, if you build the top, and spend a few hundred $$, you'll event-
ually, realize that the bottom end has 190k miles too, and needs your
attention. Why not do it and be done with it? And you can save money
by doing some of the work yourself. Talk to other guys in your local
club, find the guys who have rebuilt their own motors and get some help.
Send the pieces out to a machine shop, and assemble the components your-
self.

> I remember someone in the past on this list saying that a Ford dealer
> would rebuild an engine to original factory specs for about $1200. Does
> this sound reasonable? I'd like to spend as little as I have to because
> next comes the front end rebuild.

I posted the Ford dealer rebuild. You should understand that to my way
of thinking, there's overhauling, stock rebuild, and varying degrees of
performance rebuilding. To be clear:

Overhauling: take everything apart, clean & inspect all components,
put all components back together, replacing all gaskets,
seals and other consumeable parts. You don't need a
machine shop. When you get a 20k mile 30 year-old motor,
this is what you do. A few hundred dollars, max.

If you find any broken/worn/unuseable parts, move to the
next category.

Stock Rebuild: You intend to replace many components (cam, lifters,
rocker arms, push rods, springs, bearings, rings, maybe
valves, pistons, connecting rods, etc.). You need a
machine shop to bore/hone, even though it may just be a
cleanup bore, or a re-hone. Valve & rings are done.
Anything replaced is done to stock specifications. Unless,
there's a reason you can't, i.e. cylinder wear. Then
move to the last category. $1,000-1,500.

Perf. Rebuild: Like a stock rebuild, except that you have defined your
objectives, and have selected components: cam, carb, in-
take manifold, exhaust manifold, etc. that all work
together. Boring out the block, porting the heads, rad-
iusing certain passages, etc. all with the goal of in-
creasing performance. The machine shop plays a much
greater role, plus all the new parts you have to buy.
Figure $2,500 - 10,000.

As for the Ford dealer rebuild, I learned about it thru a restoration
shop that did a car and the owner went into bankruptcy. When trying to
interest a few club members in buying the car, he showed us a motor in
a crate, soon to be installed in this car (66 convertible). The motor
was sent to a local Ford dealer, who shipped it to a facility in NJ
that rebuilt motors for Ford on the East coast. It was a totally stock
rebuild, replacing only parts needed, setup just the way the factory
did in 1966, and waranteed for 12 months - 12,000 miles. It cost about
$1,200. I have since driven this car (I know the guy who bought it),
and the motor seems brand new. This seems to the definition of a stock
rebuild.


---------------------------------------------------------------
John M. Dettori 86 SVO (2.3l IT)
Divisional VP, Program Trading 70 Mach I (351C-4V)
Paine Webber, Inc. 67 GT conv (289-4V)
New York, NY <reserved 4 67 GT500>
212 713 4683
(email redacted)
---------------------------------------------------------------

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Jeff Christian (email redacted)

Patrick:

I had a similar situation, did only the valves. The increased
compression (I think) blew out the rings not long after. I'd
recommend you do a full rebuild, especially at the kind of mileage
you mention.

Good luck.

Jeff


> My question is this: Should I just have a valve job done, or should I
> look into a complete rebuild? The engine seems to run fine otherwise,
> and I've driven the car to several shows and events this past summer (75
> to 100 miles each way, up to 75 mph!) with no breakdowns or overheating.
> The car does have 190,000 miles on it.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: mustang (email redacted)

mustang wrote:
>
> I've really learned a lot from this list and thank everyone for sharing
> the knowledge they have.
> snip
> My question is this: Should I just have a valve job done, or should I
> look into a complete rebuild?
> The car does have 190,000 miles on it.
> snip
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Patrick Foley
> Portland, Oregon
> 72 Mustang coupe
> member "Mustangs Unlimited"
> teleport.com/~classics/muonline/muonline.html

Thanks to all who have responded to my question.

Since I dont have the room in my garage, or time and patience to take on
a complete rebuild, I will start to get some estimates on doing this. We
do have several businesses in the area that specialize in Mustang & Ford
engine work. I have also spoken to people in the club regarding what
they have paid for similar work but somehow have never gotten a clear
answer.

My next question: With everyone's collective wisdom out there, should I
lean toward an independent shop, or a Ford dealer. Of course I want
quality work done, and at a reasonable price. Has anyone had any
experience with a rebuild that they paid to have all the work done?

Thanks Again,

Patrick Foley
(email redacted)
Portland, Oregon
72 Mustang coupe - Oceanic Blue Metallic

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Michael J. Weise (email redacted)

In response to a query by Patrick Foley, John Dettori wrote:

>> The car does have 190,000 miles on it.
>
>190k! It deserves a rebuild.
>
>Do you intend to keep this car? If, yes rebuild. You'll be happier
>with a fresh engine, and the peace of mind that comes with it, perhaps
>even a warranty. And if you decide to sell, your car is more valueable.
>Plus, if you build the top, and spend a few hundred $$, you'll event-
>ually, realize that the bottom end has 190k miles too, and needs your
>attention.

Also, while a top-now/bottom-later approach may seem like a way
of paying the Piper in stages, it's likely to lead to additional work,
depending on your compulsiveness. Because... when you get around to the
bottom-later stage, you may realize that you're faced with doing the
additional work of a head cleanup necessitated by some bottom-end
shortcomings. Been there, done that; wouldn't do it again.


Mike Weise / '66 coupe < Midnight Blue daily driver >
/ '65 coupe < carport jackstand theft deterrent >

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: David J Harr (email redacted)

>
> Also, while a top-now/bottom-later approach may seem like a way
>of paying the Piper in stages, it's likely to lead to additional work,
>depending on your compulsiveness. Because... when you get around to the
>bottom-later stage, you may realize that you're faced with doing the
>additional work of a head cleanup necessitated by some bottom-end
>shortcomings. Been there, done that; wouldn't do it again.
>
>

How about thios scenario:

'66 Mustang GT, A-Code motor. Rebuilt ~14000 miles/16 months
ago with 0.030 overbore 2V (in other words, recessed, _NOT_
flat-top) pistons, minimal head milling, usual cleanup to bring
the motor up to factory specs. The person who owned the car
before I did had the work done. Mild cam installed. I want to
liven things up a bit. My current thinking is a pair of Twisted
Wedge aluminum heads with a mechanical cam, having the heads
milled out for the o-ring gaskets, and a cam that is on the
order of the original HiPo cam, or something a little wilder.
Not a lot wilder, I want to be able to drive the thing in town,
but I would also like to have it see 6500 RPM on the odd
occasion. My question is:

Does it make sense to replace the heads, camshaft, lifters,
etc etc on this old motor, or should I just look for a good
block to use as a basis for a buildup that I can then drop
into the car? Looking for a block would be a tad more
expensive, but it seems it would give me a little more
flexibility in the future. At the same time, I really don't
want to have to pull the motor, as I really don't have
anywhere to put it. Ideally, I'd like to be able to leave
the block in the car, replace the pistons, rods, heads,
and cam, and then drive on from there. Am I out of my mind?
Is it possible to pull the pistons w/o pulling the block?
Or is it just asking for more pain than I need to try and
do it that way, and I should just plan on pulling the motor
if I want to do the pistons?

Enquiring minds want to know...


David


'66 Mustang GT
'86 VFR750F
'93 NC30




David J Harr
Troublemaker at Large
(email redacted)

Why is this .sig black?

**********************************
* *
* Seymour Cray 1925-1996 RIP *
* *
**********************************

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Jeff Christian (email redacted)

On Sun, 2 Mar 1997 01:00:02 -0400, you wrote:
Patrick:
I had good luck with an engine specialty shop. I removed the motor
myself, and took it to them to rebuild. After they were done, I
re-installed the motor. It is a 200cid six cylinder, the price was
approximately 1200 canadian. For this, all internal parts of the
motor were replaced, the heads were planed, valves were touched up
(had been done earlier when I did the head only), one valve was
replaced, one cylinder had to be sleeved, and the rest bored out. I
think that's it. Hope it is somewhat helpful. The main thing is, as
always, make sure you talk to people locally before taking your motor
to anyone at all.

Best of luck.

Jeff Christian
>
>My next question: With everyone's collective wisdom out there, should I
>lean toward an independent shop, or a Ford dealer. Of course I want
>quality work done, and at a reasonable price. Has anyone had any
>experience with a rebuild that they paid to have all the work done?
>
>Thanks Again,
>
>Patrick Foley
>(email redacted)
>Portland, Oregon
>72 Mustang coupe - Oceanic Blue Metallic
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Travis Kasner (email redacted)

>My next question: With everyone's collective wisdom out there, should I
>lean toward an independent shop, or a Ford dealer. Of course I want
>quality work done, and at a reasonable price. Has anyone had any
>experience with a rebuild that they paid to have all the work done?
>


Between my brother and I, we have purchased quite a few motors for various
cars. Probably the best ones that we have got, we ordered through Miller
Brothers Auto Parts in Clackamas. The ones that he got for us are out of a
place in I believe Washington, and they use all name brand parts. They run
really strong. My brother ordered a 351 for his '67 GTA, and it is a VERY
strong runner in basically stock form. The last one that I got was a 350
Chev, it came with a double roller chain, balanced, roller tip rockers etc.
for cheaper than the local places wanted for just a stock rebuild and using
a lot of generic prices. So try not to limit yourself to rebuild shops, and
dealerships. Call around to the parts places. Sometimes you can find a
better deal at them. The motors that you order from these places will
generally be quality remanufactured engines with a lot higher standards.
Also remember that you dont want to go just on price, but parts quality and
what type of a warranty they are willing to give is also a good indication
of their confidence in their own work. Then, just about any local shop can
install it for you if you dont have anywhere to do it. And of course, good
luck, and I hope you are happy with however it turns out.

Travis Kasner
1966 Fastback GT

(P.S. I was a member of Mustangs Unlimited a few years back, When I return
to Oregon this summer I think that I will re-join, See 'ya then.)