Classic Mustangs List Archive

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Mail From: chris (chris


I have read that TORX simplifies or speeds-up some manufacturing processes because of the characteristics of TORX. For example I believe it is often easier to design robots to install TORX vs. other fasteners.

> Also, why in carnation Ford thought it was a good
>idea to use a countersunk TORX screw instead of a
>good old fashioned hex head BOLT to secure the
>tensioner assembly is going to be another of life's
>great mysteries.
>
> Lance.

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Mail From: mustang (Brandon Peskin)

"Hey, people should be buying a new car instead of ever needing to
service this bolt, right?"



On Aug 23, 2009, at 12:09 PM, chris at zk.com wrote:

> I have read that TORX simplifies or speeds-up some manufacturing
> processes because of the characteristics of TORX. For example I
> believe it is often easier to design robots to install TORX vs.
> other fasteners.

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Mail From: Lance (Lance Robaldo)

I'm sure there is at least some truth to that. However, torx are notorious
for stripping out. And when they're countersunk like this one was, it
becomes a nightmare to remove as I can now attest to.

If they insist on using Torx, then they shouldn't countersink them. That
gives us the best of both worlds. They are easier for robots to install.
And they are easier to remove if they strip out.


Lance.

> I have read that TORX simplifies or speeds-up some manufacturing processes
because of the characteristics of > TORX. For example I believe it is often
easier to design robots to install TORX vs. other fasteners.

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Mail From: ckelly (Chris Kelly)

Yes. Tons of money to be saved with every few seconds of labor. Torx are
replacing Phillips heas, probably because they can be installed easier,
quicker and more accurately without stripping. The move from slots to
Phillips was the same thing. Manufacturing engineers are great people but
are not charged with consideration of serviceability issues. That would be
design engineering. And decisions of both will be conditioned by cost
accounting. That's manufacturing. Consider - 250,000 units and you shave
10 seconds off assembly. Big deal? If the overhead hours are 75/hr that
might be typical for US auto manufacturing, you're looking at $50,000 saved
in production for that run.

I'm sure the service people think the same as you do about the
serviceability of that part.

=====================================
Chris Kelly - ckelly at raceabilene.com
raceabilene.net/kelly/hotrod
Merkel, Texas
Member:
International Hot Rod Association
Abilene Performance Car Association
Falcon Club of America
=====================================

> -----Original Message-----
> From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-
> bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of chris at zk.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 2:09 PM
> To: Chris Kelly
> Subject: Re: [CM] torx vs hex head
>
>
> I have read that TORX simplifies or speeds-up some manufacturing processes
> because of the characteristics of TORX. For example I believe it is often
> easier to design robots to install TORX vs. other fasteners.
>
> > Also, why in carnation Ford thought it was a good
> >idea to use a countersunk TORX screw instead of a
> >good old fashioned hex head BOLT to secure the
> >tensioner assembly is going to be another of life's
> >great mysteries.
> >
> > Lance.
> _______________________________________________
> Classic-mustangs mailing list
> Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca
> lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>
> Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/

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Mail From: keven (Coates, Keven)

>I'm sure the service people think the same as you do about the
serviceability of that part.

I dunno, what's wrong with Torx? Once you have a set of torx sockets, they're not any harder than hex. In fact, I think they work better than hex. Hex strips a little too easy.

You have problems with Torx stripping? I never had that problem. Maybe your sockets are undersized?

Just my $0.02.

Keven

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Mail From: Lance (Lance Robaldo)

>I dunno, what's wrong with Torx? Once you have a set of torx sockets,
they're not any harder than hex. In >fact, I think they work better than
hex. Hex strips a little too easy.

Well, for starters...Overzealous mechanics, rust, dirt, worn tools, etc, all
lead to Torx stripping out, just like Phillips head screws do. They're
great when new, but add 15+ years of weathering and abuse and they are just
about worthless. They also don't seem to stand up to much torque when
they've rust-welded themselves in place. (8 thin tines aren't nearly as
strong as 8 solid surfaces of a hex bolt)

And once they do strip, they're a real bugger to remove, especially when
they're countersunk.

Hex heads, even when rounded out, still give you SOMETHING to grab onto.
You can use Vicegrips, ez-outs, big channel locks, etc to remove a worn hex
bolt.

With a Torx, you're left with either drilling it out, or cutting it out like
I did.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: keven (Coates, Keven)

>Well, for starters...Overzealous mechanics, rust, dirt, worn tools, etc, all lead to Torx stripping out, just like Phillips head screws do. They're
great when new, but add 15+ years of weathering and abuse and they are just
about worthless.

I don't have much experience with trying to get out torx screws that are weathered. Plus, living in Texas we have a lot less trouble in general getting things apart since we don't salt the streets (at least in Houston).

For example, while exhaust bolts are difficult, they're often not impossible. In Nebraska where I lived before, there was no point in even trying. The nut and bolt were thoroughly welded together with rust.

>And once they do strip, they're a real bugger to remove, especially when
they're countersunk.

I completely agree with your countersunk point. I hate that, and I've had many hex heads (the small ones) strip in countersunk bolts too.

Last time I had a really difficult bolt that was recessed, I had to weld a pipe to it and use that as an extension!

Keven

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Mail From: mustang (Brandon Peskin)


On Aug 24, 2009, at 5:18 AM, Coates, Keven wrote:

> You have problems with Torx stripping? I never had that problem.
> Maybe your sockets are undersized?

The combination of the two different metals on the bolt/screw versus
the threaded hole are the real killer in these late model ford
applications.


Welding a pipe or something on the end of it...that's an excellent idea.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: keven (Coates, Keven)

>Welding a pipe or something on the end of it...that's an excellent idea.

It works great provided you are a good enough welder to hit the bolt head (and nothing else!).

I can't take credit for it, my father came up with it. My friend had an 80's Grand Am with wheel locks. The locks are sunk into the wheel, and if you lose the key, you're really stuck, although I know tire places have some sort of socket for that (that self destructs in the process of taking the nut off from what they tell me). The only way we were going to get those keyed lug nuts off (without the key) is by welding to them.

Since then I've done this a few times and it always works great, provided the nut/bolt is big enough to weld to.

Keven

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Mail From: mustang (mustang@wabba.n)

FWIW- for anyone who ever has found themselves with the wheel lock problem,
they are about the easiest 'lock' there is to bypass. I don't know how many
times I've answered this question so thought it might be useful if someone
out there is stressing over how to get their wheel off... Just take a socket
and pound it over the lock and remove. The lug nuts are much softer than any
decent quality socket, so 99 times out of 100 it won't even scratch your
socket. Doesn't matter if it's internally or externally keyed, round,
square, whatever. It will zip right off, then punch the silly "lock" right
out of your socket and move on (wondering why anyone would bother with them
after seeing how easy it came off). Only removed a couple hundred or so this
way, as everyone loses their keys.

Some tire places are happy to sell you the service of pulling them off with
their special sockets, but most any mechanic with experience will just use
his 3/4" deep and reserve their ultra spiffy self-destructing-lock-remover
as a marketing tool only

A small stash of old 3/8" drive sockets are great for welding to just about
anything that is stuck or stripped. And back on the torx/hex debate: no
don't try this on a torx cap screw as they are usually a high grade and WILL
eat your sockets

-----Original Message-----
From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Coates,
Keven
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 7:38 AM
To: MUSTANG at wabba.net
Subject: Re: [CM] torx vs hex head

>Welding a pipe or something on the end of it...that's an excellent idea.

It works great provided you are a good enough welder to hit the bolt head
(and nothing else!).

I can't take credit for it, my father came up with it. My friend had an
80's Grand Am with wheel locks. The locks are sunk into the wheel, and if
you lose the key, you're really stuck, although I know tire places have some
sort of socket for that (that self destructs in the process of taking the
nut off from what they tell me). The only way we were going to get those
keyed lug nuts off (without the key) is by welding to them.

Since then I've done this a few times and it always works great, provided
the nut/bolt is big enough to weld to.

Keven
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