SHOtimes List Archive

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Mail From: <(email redacted)>

Sorry for the OT but lighting is kind of a SHO issue! At least it is for me!

Do HID headlamps need headlight relays? Would they work better with relays?
The HID uses much less power, about 35W is somewhat standard. Regular
Halogen lights are usually 55W and up. The ballast inside the HID takes care
of firing off the high voltage start up pulse. I know on my SHO the relays
made a noticeable difference before I upgraded the bulbs.

This came up on my wife's Lincoln LS. The factory HID option has relays
installed in the under hood power distribution box. If the car has
conventional Halogen lighting from the factory then no relays. The spot is
there for the relay but no sockets.
But people like me have been upgrading our cars by just plugging in the HID
to the stock wiring with no problems. Everything seems to work fine? Now as
cheap as Ford/Lincoln is I know those relays are in there for a reason!
.
.
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Mail From: FlamingTaco <(email redacted)>

I know you don't want to use solid-state relays, so the slow electrical-switching characteristics of a mechanical switch might not be ideal, either, for longevity.

The relays are also a safety feature. Don't want 90V sitting on the light switch should a module component fail.

David



-----Original Message-----
>From: (email redacted)
>Sent: Jun 24, 2006 1:42 PM
>To: (email redacted)
>Subject: [Shotimes] OT: HID's and Headlight Relays?
>
>Sorry for the OT but lighting is kind of a SHO issue! At least it is for me!
>
> Do HID headlamps need headlight relays? Would they work better with relays?
>The HID uses much less power, about 35W is somewhat standard. Regular
>Halogen lights are usually 55W and up. The ballast inside the HID takes care
>of firing off the high voltage start up pulse. I know on my SHO the relays
>made a noticeable difference before I upgraded the bulbs.
>
> This came up on my wife's Lincoln LS. The factory HID option has relays
>installed in the under hood power distribution box. If the car has
>conventional Halogen lighting from the factory then no relays. The spot is
>there for the relay but no sockets.
> But people like me have been upgrading our cars by just plugging in the HID
>to the stock wiring with no problems. Everything seems to work fine? Now as
>cheap as Ford/Lincoln is I know those relays are in there for a reason!
>.
>.
>_______________________________________________
>Shotimes mailing list
>(email redacted)
>team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
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Mail From: "Paul Nimz" <(email redacted)>

You are only switching the ballast on. No way are you switching 90V, which is
the ballast output on startup. You should always use a relay on headlight
wiring anyway. A simple 30A lighting relay is all that is needed. Will you
have high beams too? Then you will need two relays.

Paul


On 6/25/2006 1:18:42 AM, FlamingTaco ((email redacted)) wrote:
> I know you
> don't want to use solid-state relays, so the slow electrical-switching
characteristics of a mechanical switch might not be ideal, either, for
longevity.
>
> The relays are also a safety feature. Don't
> want 90V sitting on the light switch should a module component fail.
>
> David
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: (email redacted)
> >Sent: Jun 24, 2006 1:42 PM
> >To: (email redacted)
> >Subject: [Shotimes] OT:
> HID's and Headlight Relays?
> >
> >Sorry for the OT but lighting is kind of a SHO issue! At least it is for
me!
> >
> > Do HID headlamps need headlight relays? Would they work better with
relays?
> >The HID uses much less power, about 35W is somewhat standard. Regular
> >Halogen lights are usually 55W and up. The ballast inside the HID takes
care
> >of firing off the high voltage start up pulse. I know on my SHO the relays
> >made a noticeable difference before I upgraded the bulbs.
> >
> > This came up on my wife's
> Lincoln LS. The factory HID option has relays
> >installed in the under hood power distribution box. If the car has
> >conventional Halogen lighting from the factory then no relays. The spot
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Mail From: <(email redacted)>

The factory relays are mechanical.
.
.



>I know you don't want to use solid-state relays, so the slow
>electrical-switching characteristics of a mechanical switch might not be
>ideal, either, for longevity.
>
> The relays are also a safety feature. Don't want 90V sitting on the light
> switch should a module component fail.
>
> David
>
>
>>
>>Sorry for the OT but lighting is kind of a SHO issue! At least it is for
>>me!
>>
>> Do HID headlamps need headlight relays? Would they work better with
>> relays?
>>The HID uses much less power, about 35W is somewhat standard. Regular
>>Halogen lights are usually 55W and up. The ballast inside the HID takes
>>care
>>of firing off the high voltage start up pulse. I know on my SHO the relays
>>made a noticeable difference before I upgraded the bulbs.
>>
>> This came up on my wife's Lincoln LS. The factory HID option has relays
>>installed in the under hood power distribution box. If the car has
>>conventional Halogen lighting from the factory then no relays. The spot is
>>there for the relay but no sockets.
>> But people like me have been upgrading our cars by just plugging in the
>> HID
>>to the stock wiring with no problems. Everything seems to work fine? Now
>>as
>>cheap as Ford/Lincoln is I know those relays are in there for a reason!
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Mail From: Ian Fisher <(email redacted)>

Yes, you should use relays. The ballasts can draw as
much as 40a each upon startup. You don't want all of
that going through your headlight switch.

A decent headlight harness such as the one from
www.suvlights.com should work fine.

As far as beam pattern and output, the SHO headlight
isn't setup optimally for retrofitted HID capsules.

Ian

--- (email redacted) wrote:

> The factory relays are mechanical.
> .
> .
>
>
>
> >I know you don't want to use solid-state relays, so
> the slow
> >electrical-switching characteristics of a
> mechanical switch might not be
> >ideal, either, for longevity.
> >
> > The relays are also a safety feature. Don't want
> 90V sitting on the light
> > switch should a module component fail.
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >>
> >>Sorry for the OT but lighting is kind of a SHO
> issue! At least it is for
> >>me!
> >>
> >> Do HID headlamps need headlight relays? Would
> they work better with
> >> relays?
> >>The HID uses much less power, about 35W is
> somewhat standard. Regular
> >>Halogen lights are usually 55W and up. The ballast
> inside the HID takes
> >>care
> >>of firing off the high voltage start up pulse. I
> know on my SHO the relays
> >>made a noticeable difference before I upgraded the
> bulbs.
> >>
> >> This came up on my wife's Lincoln LS. The factory
> HID option has relays
> >>installed in the under hood power distribution
> box. If the car has
> >>conventional Halogen lighting from the factory
> then no relays. The spot is
> >>there for the relay but no sockets.
> >> But people like me have been upgrading our cars
> by just plugging in the
> >> HID
> >>to the stock wiring with no problems. Everything
> seems to work fine? Now
> >>as
> >>cheap as Ford/Lincoln is I know those relays are
> in there for a reason!
> _______________________________________________
> Shotimes mailing list
> (email redacted)
> team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
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Mail From: FlamingTaco <(email redacted)>

I was referring to the mechanical hand-operated switch in the cabin, not a significantly faster switching relay. If you've ever looked at the voltage supplied by a hand-operated switch while it's being turned, voltage jumps around significantly due to corrosion on the contacts and the (electronically speaking) incredible amount of time it takes to fuly engage the switch. The erratic voltage might not be good for the HID modules. I'm not positive, but when I was looking at the new HID tech back in the day, I think I remember Sylvania or someone specifying quick-switching relays to provide the input power. Been a long time, though, and things change.

David



-----Original Message-----
>From: (email redacted)
>Sent: Jun 25, 2006 12:14 PM
>To: FlamingTaco <(email redacted)>, (email redacted)
>Subject: Re: [Shotimes] OT: HID's and Headlight Relays?
>
>The factory relays are mechanical.
>.
>.
>
>
>
>>I know you don't want to use solid-state relays, so the slow
>>electrical-switching characteristics of a mechanical switch might not be
>>ideal, either, for longevity.
>>
>> The relays are also a safety feature. Don't want 90V sitting on the light
>> switch should a module component fail.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Sorry for the OT but lighting is kind of a SHO issue! At least it is for
>>>me!
>>>
>>> Do HID headlamps need headlight relays? Would they work better with
>>> relays?
>>>The HID uses much less power, about 35W is somewhat standard. Regular
>>>Halogen lights are usually 55W and up. The ballast inside the HID takes
>>>care
>>>of firing off the high voltage start up pulse. I know on my SHO the relays
>>>made a noticeable difference before I upgraded the bulbs.
>>>
>>> This came up on my wife's Lincoln LS. The factory HID option has relays
>>>installed in the under hood power distribution box. If the car has
>>>conventional Halogen lighting from the factory then no relays. The spot is
>>>there for the relay but no sockets.
>>> But people like me have been upgrading our cars by just plugging in the
>>> HID
>>>to the stock wiring with no problems. Everything seems to work fine? Now
>>>as
>>>cheap as Ford/Lincoln is I know those relays are in there for a reason!
>_______________________________________________
>Shotimes mailing list
>(email redacted)
>team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
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Mail From: <(email redacted)>

Ian:
That is kinda my question. But I will install the factory Lincoln relay
setup when I get time. I have found as least 4 or 5 people that are running
HID's without the relays in the LS and have no problems yet?
.
.
.

> Yes, you should use relays. The ballasts can draw as
> much as 40a each upon startup. You don't want all of
> that going through your headlight switch.
>
> A decent headlight harness such as the one from
> www.suvlights.com should work fine.
>
> As far as beam pattern and output, the SHO headlight
> isn't setup optimally for retrofitted HID capsules.
>
> Ian
>
> --- (email redacted) wrote:
>
>> The factory relays are mechanical.
>> .
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>> >I know you don't want to use solid-state relays, so
>> the slow
>> >electrical-switching characteristics of a
>> mechanical switch might not be
>> >ideal, either, for longevity.
>> >
>> > The relays are also a safety feature. Don't want
>> 90V sitting on the light
>> > switch should a module component fail.
>> >
>> > David
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Sorry for the OT but lighting is kind of a SHO
>> issue! At least it is for
>> >>me!
>> >>
>> >> Do HID headlamps need headlight relays? Would
>> they work better with
>> >> relays?
>> >>The HID uses much less power, about 35W is
>> somewhat standard. Regular
>> >>Halogen lights are usually 55W and up. The ballast
>> inside the HID takes
>> >>care
>> >>of firing off the high voltage start up pulse. I
>> know on my SHO the relays
>> >>made a noticeable difference before I upgraded the
>> bulbs.
>> >>
>> >> This came up on my wife's Lincoln LS. The factory
>> HID option has relays
>> >>installed in the under hood power distribution
>> box. If the car has
>> >>conventional Halogen lighting from the factory
>> then no relays. The spot is
>> >>there for the relay but no sockets.
>> >> But people like me have been upgrading our cars
>> by just plugging in the
>> >> HID
>> >>to the stock wiring with no problems. Everything
>> seems to work fine? Now
>> >>as
>> >>cheap as Ford/Lincoln is I know those relays are
>> in there for a reason!
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Mail From: Ian Fisher <(email redacted)>

Were any of those LS's available with HID's as an
option? Its possible that the relays are already in
place.

It is possible to run the HID's without relays but
it's a huge gamble. Not everyone will have problems
but you would be overloading the stock wiring in the
SHO if you did it without relays.

For some good reading, go to www.hidplanet.com and
read the forums and/or FAQ there.

Are the Lincoln relays cheap? If not, why not consider
Bosch relays or a pre-made harness like the
suvlights.com harness? It already comes with BOSCH
relays and can't be easily replicated for much less
than they charge. Their 9007 harness is an excellent
deal and well made.

Ian

--- (email redacted) wrote:

> Ian:
> That is kinda my question. But I will install the
> factory Lincoln relay
> setup when I get time. I have found as least 4 or 5
> people that are running
> HID's without the relays in the LS and have no
> problems yet?
> .
> .
> .
>
> > Yes, you should use relays. The ballasts can draw
> as
> > much as 40a each upon startup. You don't want all
> of
> > that going through your headlight switch.
> >
> > A decent headlight harness such as the one from
> > www.suvlights.com should work fine.
> >
> > As far as beam pattern and output, the SHO
> headlight
> > isn't setup optimally for retrofitted HID
> capsules.
> >
> > Ian
> >
> > --- (email redacted) wrote:
> >
> >> The factory relays are mechanical.
> >> .
> >> .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >I know you don't want to use solid-state relays,
> so
> >> the slow
> >> >electrical-switching characteristics of a
> >> mechanical switch might not be
> >> >ideal, either, for longevity.
> >> >
> >> > The relays are also a safety feature. Don't
> want
> >> 90V sitting on the light
> >> > switch should a module component fail.
> >> >
> >> > David
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>Sorry for the OT but lighting is kind of a SHO
> >> issue! At least it is for
> >> >>me!
> >> >>
> >> >> Do HID headlamps need headlight relays? Would
> >> they work better with
> >> >> relays?
> >> >>The HID uses much less power, about 35W is
> >> somewhat standard. Regular
> >> >>Halogen lights are usually 55W and up. The
> ballast
> >> inside the HID takes
> >> >>care
> >> >>of firing off the high voltage start up pulse.
> I
> >> know on my SHO the relays
> >> >>made a noticeable difference before I upgraded
> the
> >> bulbs.
> >> >>
> >> >> This came up on my wife's Lincoln LS. The
> factory
> >> HID option has relays
> >> >>installed in the under hood power distribution
> >> box. If the car has
> >> >>conventional Halogen lighting from the factory
> >> then no relays. The spot is
> >> >>there for the relay but no sockets.
> >> >> But people like me have been upgrading our
> cars
> >> by just plugging in the
> >> >> HID
> >> >>to the stock wiring with no problems.
> Everything
> >> seems to work fine? Now
> >> >>as
> >> >>cheap as Ford/Lincoln is I know those relays
> are
> >> in there for a reason!
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Mail From: "Paul Nimz" <(email redacted)>

On the set I had I never saw over 20A even when the system started and the
voltage was ~110V. If you are worried about the high voltage feeding back and
use a fuse as protection be sure to get one rated for over 200V. A typical
auto fuse is rated for up to 32V usually.

What I see on AC ballast when the blow is they short internally and die.
Before any secondary high voltage would be fed into the primary side the
system would overload. Just as an ignition coil will do.

Paul


On 6/25/2006 12:07:00 PM, Ian Fisher ((email redacted)) wrote:
> Yes, you should use relays. The ballasts can draw as
> much as 40a each upon startup. You
> don't want all of
> that going through your headlight switch.
>
> A decent headlight harness such as the one from
> www.suvlights.com should work fine.
>
> As far as beam pattern and output, the SHO headlight
> isn't
> setup optimally for retrofitted HID capsules.
>
> Ian
>
> --- (email redacted) wrote:
>
> > The factory relays are mechanical.
> > .
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> > >I know you
> don't want to use solid-state relays, so
> > the slow
> > >electrical-switching characteristics of a
> > mechanical switch might not be
> > >ideal, either, for longevity.
> > >
> > > The relays are also a safety feature. Don't
> want
> > 90V sitting on the light
> > > switch should a module component fail.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>Sorry for the OT but lighting is kind of a SHO
> > issue! At least it is for
> > >>me!
> > >>
> > >> Do HID headlamps need headlight relays? Would
> > they work better with
> > >> relays
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Mail From: <(email redacted)>

Ian:
Yes. The LS had a HID option from the factory and I now have purchased a
set of HID headlights. The spot for the relays is in the power distribution
box but no wires are run to the sockets. I think I will just try and copy
the factory relay setup. I have several of the style I need from a recent
junk yard visit.
.
.
There is no way for 90 V to get to the headlight switch!! It's only 12 VDC
until you get inside the HID assembly and the ballast takes over. So no it
won't put high voltage on your headlight switch wiring! But I am MUCH more
concerned about the load or amperage running thru the switch!
.
.



> Were any of those LS's available with HID's as an
> option? Its possible that the relays are already in
> place.
>
> It is possible to run the HID's without relays but
> it's a huge gamble. Not everyone will have problems
> but you would be overloading the stock wiring in the
> SHO if you did it without relays.
>
> For some good reading, go to www.hidplanet.com and
> read the forums and/or FAQ there.
>
> Are the Lincoln relays cheap? If not, why not consider
> Bosch relays or a pre-made harness like the
> suvlights.com harness? It already comes with BOSCH
> relays and can't be easily replicated for much less
> than they charge. Their 9007 harness is an excellent
> deal and well made.
>
> Ian
>
> --- (email redacted) wrote:
>
>> Ian:
>> That is kinda my question. But I will install the
>> factory Lincoln relay
>> setup when I get time. I have found as least 4 or 5
>> people that are running
>> HID's without the relays in the LS and have no
>> problems yet?
>> .
>> .
>> .
>>
>> > Yes, you should use relays. The ballasts can draw
>> as
>> > much as 40a each upon startup. You don't want all
>> of
>> > that going through your headlight switch.
>> >
>> > A decent headlight harness such as the one from
>> > www.suvlights.com should work fine.
>> >
>> > As far as beam pattern and output, the SHO
>> headlight
>> > isn't setup optimally for retrofitted HID
>> capsules.
>> >
>> > Ian
>> >
>> > --- (email redacted) wrote:
>> >
>> >> The factory relays are mechanical.
>> >> .
>> >> .
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >I know you don't want to use solid-state relays,
>> so
>> >> the slow
>> >> >electrical-switching characteristics of a
>> >> mechanical switch might not be
>> >> >ideal, either, for longevity.
>> >> >
>> >> > The relays are also a safety feature. Don't
>> want
>> >> 90V sitting on the light
>> >> > switch should a module component fail.
>> >> >
>> >> > David
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Sorry for the OT but lighting is kind of a SHO
>> >> issue! At least it is for
>> >> >>me!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Do HID headlamps need headlight relays? Would
>> >> they work better with
>> >> >> relays?
>> >> >>The HID uses much less power, about 35W is
>> >> somewhat standard. Regular
>> >> >>Halogen lights are usually 55W and up. The
>> ballast
>> >> inside the HID takes
>> >> >>care
>> >> >>of firing off the high voltage start up pulse.
>> I
>> >> know on my SHO the relays
>> >> >>made a noticeable difference before I upgraded
>> the
>> >> bulbs.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This came up on my wife's Lincoln LS. The
>> factory
>> >> HID option has relays
>> >> >>installed in the under hood power distribution
>> >> box. If the car has
>> >> >>conventional Halogen lighting from the factory
>> >> then no relays. The spot is
>> >> >>there for the relay but no sockets.
>> >> >> But people like me have been upgrading our
>> cars
>> >> by just plugging in the
>> >> >> HID
>> >> >>to the stock wiring with no problems.
>> Everything
>> >> seems to work fine? Now
>> >> >>as
>> >> >>cheap as Ford/Lincoln is I know those relays
>> are
>> >> in there for a reason!
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Mail From: <(email redacted)>

Ian:
Thanks for the link and I found the answer in the FAQ!!

"Some people out there just aren't aware of the dangers with wiring HID
straight off of your existing oem wiring. Should a relay be used to power
HID, yes and always needs to be used. Why you ask perhaps? Your oem halogen
equipped car was never designed or intended from the manufacturer to use or
run high voltage/high current/ high amperage HID ballasts. Ballast draw a
immense amount of amps upon start-up and could very seriously damage your
wiring and not just at where its connected. We are talking serious damage to
fuse boxes, ecu's, or worse could short and cause fires on very old cares
that even have a hard enough time trying to power halogen. The reason why
is, that when the ballast "demand" power, your car has to supply it from
somewhere. Lets say its tapped into your oem headlight wire ok. Now you
power up the ballasts, the draw current from your wiring, your wiring might
not be up to the task so its needs help, it searches for a source and before
you know it, you've now weakened not only one source but two now just to try
and supply the ballast good clean power. This is why a relay harness is
needed. A relay harness gets its power straight from the battery via relays.
These relays are then wired to go to your ballasts now"




> For some good reading, go to www.hidplanet.com and
> read the forums and/or FAQ there.
>
> Ian
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Mail From: FlamingTaco <(email redacted)>

>There is no way for 90 V to get to the headlight switch!! It's only 12 VDC
>until you get inside the HID assembly and the ballast takes over. So no it
>won't put high voltage on your headlight switch wiring!

While this may not be the typical failure mode for HID modules (been mentioned already that they tend to short internal to the voltage coil), I've seen enough power supplies short back to the input via regulating components, feedback loops, and even shorted windings to know that what I stated is quite possible. Knowing this, I cannot consciously give advice to anyone to preclude their own safety.

David
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Mail From: <(email redacted)>

No you won't get 90 V back to the headlight switch! The ballast might go
open or short to ground but an 12 VDC automotive headlamp system will not do
this. Look at how it's wired. Just like the HID capsule is ignited at 23K
+/- 1K volts. That won't get back to your headlight switch either. But the
HID headlamps are labeled with a high voltage warning sticker because that's
where you could possibly come across the high voltage.
.
.



> >There is no way for 90 V to get to the headlight switch!! It's only 12
> >VDC
>>until you get inside the HID assembly and the ballast takes over. So no it
>>won't put high voltage on your headlight switch wiring!
>
> While this may not be the typical failure mode for HID modules (been
> mentioned already that they tend to short internal to the voltage coil),
> I've seen enough power supplies short back to the input via regulating
> components, feedback loops, and even shorted windings to know that what I
> stated is quite possible. Knowing this, I cannot consciously give advice
> to anyone to preclude their own safety.
>
> David
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Mail From: "Paul Nimz" <(email redacted)>

Just use a relay like you should.

When is the last time you worried about the +30K ignition coil backfeeding
into the B+?

Paul




On 6/25/2006 10:10:11 PM, FlamingTaco ((email redacted)) wrote:
> >There is no way for 90 V to get to the headlight switch!!
> It's only 12 VDC
> >until you get inside the HID assembly and the ballast takes over. So no it
> >won't
> put high voltage on your headlight switch wiring!
>
> While this may not be the typical failure mode for HID modules (been
> mentioned already that they tend to short internal to the voltage coil),
I've seen enough power supplies short back to the input via regulating
components, feedback loops, and even shorted windings to know that what I
stated is quite possible. Knowing this, I cannot consciously give advice to
anyone to preclude their own safety.
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
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Mail From: "Sean Simons" <(email redacted)>

I ended up wiring a relay for my HID conversion:
cardomain.com/ride/565226/2

When I first tried wiring the HIDs to each normal headlight circuit, only
one or the other could be on at once. When trying to run both, one of them
would turn off, until you unplugged the other. I don't know much about
electronics or what exactly was happening (some sort of voltage drop), but
we just powered them through a relay, triggered by one of the headlight
circuits. I left the other circuit open, and just pulled the "lamp out" blub
from the dash.
This way, my headlights get full power straight from the battery.

-Sean
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