Fordnatics List Archive

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Dave Williams)


I managed to schmooze another cracked head today - this one is a '78
351K head. Already acid dipped, bead blasted, and painted. The
rebuilder declined payment, "Take that $(&!*! outta here!" (otherwise
known as the Brian Kelley Syndrome...)

This one I'm bandsawing crosswise, should be quite photogenic when I
get done. <grin>


One of the local engine shops wanted to know if I could make them a set
of Ford torque plates. Sure, I have the mill, no problem. But now that
I've opened a head up, it's apparent the average torque plate is
probably not as effective as many people think. Bolting a two inch
thick slab of cast iron to the top of the block certainly looks
impressive, but the deck of a regular head is only a quarter inch thick,
with the tubular bolt pillars, part of the chamber, and the outboard
bolts putting a very uneven load on the block. No wonder blower motors
have gasket trouble! So I've designed a torque plate that should
simulate the effects of a real head, at least better than a solid plate.
I dropped by the metal place today and ordered the pieces. I'll have to
machine some parts, then weld it all up since the torque plates will be
hollow weldments. Yee-hah! Are we high tech or what? I'll use them on
the stroker 302, then I'll see if I can sell a few.

Detroit Gasket did an SAE paper once, on a head gasket they'd made with
bunches of strain guages embedded in it, where they could measure gasket
loads directly. I'd love to have a toy like that. <sigh>

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Dave Williams)


-> >known as the Brian Kelley Syndrome...)
>
> Huh? Are you referring to my propensity for vulgarity or that
> cracked but nicely cleaned and decked 302 block I have?

Yes. <grin> You're not the only one to float that boat, though.
<sigh>


-> current Ford NASCAR head). They had what looked like a torque plate
-> bolted to the deck of the head while they did the valve seats.

Yep. B-H-J sells them, and probably others. They're also useful for
pressure checking the heads.


-> That would definitely be the hot ticket. I wonder how much
-> development work the big boys have really done in this area.
-> Probably quite a bit... I'll have to have my friend ask his source at
-> Diamond what they do.

I wish I'd paid more attention to those papers, long ago. Or just kept
them. I could've cared less about any damned gaskets back then.
<pounds head against desk>


-> I'm still thinking about those SVO C302 heads that will flow 330 cfm
-> per intake port. The price has dropped again and now they're down to
-> $385. They require custom pistons (for the canted valves). These
-> would probably be about the hottest ticket for a killer 331. I think

No problem, really. You have to have custom pistons anyway, or custom
rods, or both. Arias wants about the same price no matter what,
probably most of the other piston companies would be similar.


-> compression. I suspect a torque plate to model such a head would be
-> different than that required for a normal production Cleveland head.

I'm almost certain of it. Looking at that Edelbrock head
cross-section, I'm certain an optimum torque plate for it would be
different from a plain iron 5.0 head. I have a Cleveland head available
for carving up, though I hate to ruin a 4v Cleveland head.

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Mail From: Dan Malek <(email redacted)>


> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 15:19:00 +0000
> From: Dave Williams <(email redacted)>
>
>


>One of the local engine shops wanted to know if I could make them a set
>of Ford torque plates........
>.......it's apparent the average torque plate is
>probably not as effective as many people think.......
>

Geeze, Dave, you are giving away all of the secrets :-)! A torque plate
can be a real big joke, and is sometimes worse than not using one at all.

Another "secret".....Bolt the heads on the block, along with the
intake and main caps, then use the bore gauge from the bottom of the
engine. Carefully map the bores, then remove the stuff and bolt on a
set of torque plates. It too often looks very different, but if you
know the head design (and with the bore maps) you can fudge around with
hardened washers and different bolt tension to get the bore maps to match.
Also, aluminum heads will pull on a block differently than cast iron,
and aluminum seems to match the torque plate better than iron heads, at
least with my small sample. Now you know why a really good (and proper)
block blueprint job costs so much money. It takes forever to fit, measure,
and adjust stuff. With hand selected racing blocks, you can almost "mass
produce" the blueprint job, but with factory blocks there is just too
much variation, so it takes an equally long time to blueprint subsequent
blocks.


-- Dan

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Mail From: (email redacted)


>Another "secret".....Bolt the heads on the block, along with the
>intake and main caps, then use the bore gauge from the bottom of the
>engine. Carefully map the bores, then remove the stuff and bolt on a
>set of torque plates. It too often looks very different, but if you
>know the head design (and with the bore maps) you can fudge around with
>hardened washers and different bolt tension to get the bore maps to match.

How extensively do you map the bores, or is that a "secret"? How many
data points do you use before you're satisfied that you have enough data ?

Dig
(email redacted)

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Mail From: Dan Malek <(email redacted)>


> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 94 10:56:22 -0500
> From: (email redacted)
>
>

<....Cylinder bore mapping....>

>How extensively do you map the bores, or is that a "secret"? How many
>data points do you use before you're satisfied that you have enough data ?

Well, the more the better, but the minimum is top, middle, and bottom of
piston travel. Then parallel and perpendicular to the crankshaft. You
end up with a minimum of six measurements, but we often add a 45 degree
"X" to these which doubles the measurements.


-- Dan

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Dave Williams)


-> We keep trying to figure out how to bore an engine this way, and then
-> end up in a big discussion about is it really worth the effort. So
-> what if you are off a few thousandths in the bore, what does that
-> really mean?

The leakdown tester will tell you. You do have a point, though. The
cylinder walls are thin, and between combustion pressure and rod loading
they probably move around enough on their own to make any minor boring
error moot. Still, a round bore means there's one less variable.


-> So you spend a year building the perfect engine, then
-> you get to the race track, get a bad tire or have some other
-> mechanical failure, and it is all for nothing. I have kind of
-> changed my attitude

True. It might be perfect on the stand, but as soon as you fire it up
it's on its way to oblivion. Long ago I seldom had a motor together
more than a few thousand miles before I tore it back down to change it,
repair it, or sell it. I'm trying to think more of longevity now.

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Dave Williams)


-> Forgive my ignorance - I havn't machined a thing in my life. It
-> seems that what you all are getting at is that a better way is needed
-> to simulate the load and distortion imposed on a block when a head is
-> torqued to spec.

Right. You're talking about 75 to 125 pounds of torque on the head
bolts, which does weird things to both the head and block deck surfaces.
As a side effect it pulls the bores slightly out of round.


-> and having a torque plate on it is better. Would it be possible to
-> bore the block from the *bottom* with a head installed? I'm not
-> familiar with the equipment, but it seems that having an actual head
-> installed would deform the block in just the way you want.

A real head would be best, and boring from the bottom would be best.
You've got the right idea. Unfortunately the cylinder banks are offset
and the main webs get in the way. Conventional boring equipment also
locates off the deck surface, or the top of the torque plate. The
boring head would also likely not clear the web. Now, you *could* do
the job with a mill and a standard machine-shop style boring head, just
flip the block the right direction and bolt it to the table, *but* a
standard Bridgeport or clone doesn't have enough spindle travel to do
the job. My Gorton mill has 6" of travel, which is just slightly too
little to do it. Mills larger than a standard Bridgeport are almost
exponentially greater in price.

A jig borer or big horizontal mill might do the job. Hmm... On the
other hand, if I dink around with weldment torque plates long enough I
ought to be able to come up with something that'll work with a standard
boring bar. I might be out a few bucks, but it'd be much cheaper in the
long run.

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Dave Williams)


-> How about boring holes through the head, turning it into a torque
-> plate. Kind of heavy-handed, but that may even be better than a
-> solid plate of steel (then, maybe not!)

The perimeter of the chamber loads the bore some. If you cut it away
it will change things. What I'm trying to do with the built up plates
is to duplicate the same distortion I get with a standard head.


-> How do folks like Robert Yates bore their blocks? (Or is that an
-> Industry Secret?)

I wouldn't mind knowing that myself.