Fordnatics List Archive

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Mail From: "Paul Ansley" <(email redacted)>

Shel Belinkoff wrote:

>Friction modifier is to reduce friction, or more >specifically, grabbing and
the galling of your clutch >plates. Without it you may get a quicker and
tighter >lockup (for lack of better descriptive words), but risk >damage to
your lsd clutches.

Hmmm.... that's interesting. Ford recommended I use the modifier in my
Thunderbird Super Coupe's (the non-4wd variety :-) manual trannie to help
notchy shifting. They said this trannie works the same as LSD's in that they
have "viscous coupling" and that the modifier increases the friction so the
plates will couple.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Ansley
Intermetrics - Manned Spaceflight Division
Houston, Texas USA
(email redacted)

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Paul Ansley" <(email redacted)>

In response to your letter received Mon, Feb 20, 1995 at 2:20 PM

Please excuse my last post on friction modifier in LSD's ; it was meant for
another list.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Ansley
Intermetrics - Manned Spaceflight Division
Houston, Texas USA
(email redacted)

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Shel Belinkoff <(email redacted)>

Ford limited slip differentials don't operate with a viscous coupling.
They use clutch plates and springs. I've never heard of a viscous
coupling in an manual xmission.

Shel Belinkoff
(email redacted)
_________________

On 20 Feb 1995, Paul Ansley wrote:

> Hmmm.... that's interesting. Ford recommended I use the modifier in my
> Thunderbird Super Coupe's (the non-4wd variety :-) manual trannie to help
> notchy shifting. They said this trannie works the same as LSD's in that they
> have "viscous coupling" and that the modifier increases the friction so the
> plates will couple.

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Mail From: "Fontana Peter" <(email redacted)>

> I've never heard of a viscous
> coupling in an manual xmission.

Shel -
I think the reference was to the way the synchro would grab onto the target
gear and spin it up (or down). Some synchro designs have a lining that
provides the friction for this - I think others rely on the lube to do some of
the work (somebody help me out here please).

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Paul Ansley" <(email redacted)>

In response to your letter received Tue, Feb 21, 1995 at 6:17 AM

>I think the reference was to the way the synchro would >grab onto the target
gear and spin it up (or down). >Some synchro designs >have a lining that
provides the >friction for this........

Yes, this is what the service mgr. told me, sorry I didn't explain it better.
I am also sorry I don't know more to explain it any further. As for Ford
LSD's not using viscous coupling I'll take your word Shel since I have never
been in one yet. I was just giving the Service mgr. the benefit of the doubt
that he knew what he was talking about.

BTW Shel, since you are on the Fordnatic's and Offroad lists like me I got a
little confused yesterday as to where this thread originated from :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Ansley
Intermetrics - Manned Spaceflight Division
Houston, Texas USA
(email redacted)




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Message-ID: <(email redacted)>
Date: 21 Feb 1995 06:43:32 -0500
From: "Fontana Peter" <(email redacted)>
Subject: RE: Friction modifier
Cc: (email redacted)
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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted) (Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware)

On Feb 21, Peter Fontana wrote:

> > I've never heard of a viscous
> > coupling in an manual xmission.
>
> Shel -
> I think the reference was to the way the synchro would grab onto the target
> gear and spin it up (or down). Some synchro designs have a lining that
> provides the friction for this - I think others rely on the lube to do some of
> the work (somebody help me out here please).

Right. The synchro blocker rings require a certain level of friction
to drag the non-driven parts of the transmission up to speed so that
smooth engagement can occur.

The purpose of the "friction modifier" is to *lower* the level of
friction between the clutch plates in the Salibury-type Traction-Lok
differential to reduce noise (popping, grinding, and crunching sounds)
while cornering. It's pretty good at this, too. Some gear oils
(especially the synthetics, such as Mobil 1 75W-90 and Red Line
75W-90) have a goodly dose of friction modifier additives already in
them, so no *additional* modifier is necessary for smooth Traction-Lok
operation. Most of the dinosaur-based gear oils do need the modifier
added.

For example, I've run the brains out of several Traction-Loks using
Mobil 1 and Red Line on both the street and in roadracing trim, with
nary a peep. And I've never used the friction modifer. On the other
hand, is you use a lubricant such as Red Line 75W-90NS (The NS stands
for Non Slip- the EP friction modifier package is specifically
_omitted_), the rear end will lock up very nicely on the throttle. It
will also make you _deaf_ as it pops, crunches, and generally
complains. I got a chance to ride in a late Mustang set up that way at
Laguna Seca a couple weeks ago. It is an _ugly_ and expensive sound,
but the rear end did lock up nicely exiting the slow corners...

Now, for transmissions: The whole idea of putting the friction
modifier in with the ATF in a T-5 is fundamentally flawed. We've
discussed this in the past here and on the Mustangs list. I don't know
who it is at the Ford service training group who started that practice
of putting the modifier in every tranny that comes through the shop,
but they clearly didn't talk to Borg-Warner first. They are very wrong
to do that.

The friction modifer will reduce the friction between the synchronizer
surfaces, and will very likely result in slower and noisier shifts, as
the driver will have to apply more lever pressure to override the
atrificially slick oil to get the synchros to work properly. The
people I spoke to at the Borg-Warner engineering group specifically
warned against this practice. The synchros in the T-5 were designed
for the level of drag that the moderately high-friction Dexron-II ATFs
produce. Adding in any additive to make it "slicker" is a guaranteed
way to make the box *worse*, not better.

By the way, this comment applies *only to T-5s*. The 'box in the
T-bird SC is the Mazda-sourced M5R2, I think, so it may have different
internal requirements. I belive that it uses a gear oil, not an ATF,
but my shop manuals contradict themselves on this point, and I've
never had one to play with. If anyone knows for sure, please let me
know via private email- I have little MN12 knowledge, and I'd like to
add to it.

But the bottom line is that I would treat any addition of slick stuff
to a synchromesh transmission with _extreme_ skepticism, until I got
the scoop directly from the manufacturer. It is often very risky to
trust what dealer wrenches tell you without some backup.

Hope that helps. That is one urban legend that the Ford service
departments keep propagating...

-skod

- --
Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware
expatriate SCCA New England Region Flagging/Communications worker
(and driver, of anything that turns both right and left,
and can pass tech...) Return Path : (email redacted)

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

>>The synchros in the T-5 were designed for the level of drag that the
moderately high-friction Dexron-II ATFs produce. Adding in any additive to
make it "slicker" is a guaranteed way to make the box *worse*, not better.<<

So... does this include synthetics - like Mobil One? I seem to notice more
grinding as I shift with the Mobil One. I added no modifier, but is the
Mobil One synthetic slicker? I also notice a high number of grinds into
second gear the _first_ shift after startup. The it's fine. BTW, the grind
shifts always go in, they just make racket soing it. Plus, my Hurst shifter
amplifies all that stuff now.

-Tom

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted) (Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware)

On Feb 21, (email redacted) wrote:

> >>The synchros in the T-5 were designed for the level of drag that the
> moderately high-friction Dexron-II ATFs produce. Adding in any additive to
> make it "slicker" is a guaranteed way to make the box *worse*, not better.<<
>
> So... does this include synthetics - like Mobil One? I seem to notice more
> grinding as I shift with the Mobil One. I added no modifier, but is the
> Mobil One synthetic slicker? I also notice a high number of grinds into
> second gear the _first_ shift after startup. The it's fine. BTW, the grind
> shifts always go in, they just make racket soing it. Plus, my Hurst shifter
> amplifies all that stuff now.

Your mileage may vary. I use nothing but Mobil 1 Universal Synthetic
ATF in my T-5, and have had esxcellent results for over 130k miles.
Others here have *hated* the feel of the box with Mobil 1 in in, and
swear by Red Line MTL, or Red Line ATF, or whatever. Whatever works
for you, works for you.

If the fluid meets the Dexron-II specs, the synchros will work
properly. If it meets those specs but is a little higher viscosity,
the box may feel slow to drop in. Lower viscosity fluids like the
Mobil 1 will allow the box to drop in with much lower effort, but may
allow you to hear more of the synchros' normal noise. Use the oil to
tune the feel of the gearbox to your satisfaction.

You will find that the Hurst shifter will telegraph somewhat more of
the noise that was there all along right up to your hand. Such is
life...

-skod

- --
Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware
expatriate SCCA New England Region Flagging/Communications worker
(and driver, of anything that turns both right and left,
and can pass tech...) Return Path : (email redacted)