Classic Mustangs List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Bill Lynch (email redacted)

As an owner of a 1963 Corvette (under restoration) as well as a 1965
Mustang 2+2 (nice driver) it amazes me to what extent people will go to
worry about "matching numbers". In the Corvette world, this has been going
on for so long that you can now buy almost any reproduction replacement part
with "matching numbers" to your specifications.

It didn't take long for people to figure out how to restamp the engine
blocks and some have even forged (as in fraud) the casting numbers using
everything from polyester to solder. Too bad if a part ever wore out and
had to be replaced. If the car doesn't have every part it left the factory
with it has NO VALUE! (I am exaggerating, of course).

Now days it isn't even good enough to have "matching numbers", the judges
and collectors want to see every piece of documentation from original sales
invoices, motor vehicle audit trails and owner histories to period photos.
(Of course, these can be purchased as well.)

The Corvette "hobby" has been ruined beyond recognition by the Anal,
Numbers Freaks. Even to the extent that factory drips and overspray must be
perfectly imitated and even weatherstripping glue be put on just as sloppily
as at the factory. - No better, no worse, EXACTLY as the poor slob trying
to earn his $32 daily pay.

My point is that Mustangs were only $3,000 dollar cars! For Pete's sake,
we used to buy them in the early '70s for $100 bucks! They aren't perfect;
they aren't consistent. They are popular because they are FUN CARS!

Why can't people just enjoy the hobby? Enjoy the cars? There's always
somebody bragging that his something-or-other car is better than all the
rest because it still has the original air in the tires!

I say, if you can't live without a VIN on your block, then stamp one on
there and leave the rest of us alone. You'll sleep better knowing your
numbers match, and I'll sleep better knowing I have a real neat car out
front that I can drive all over the place because my "numbers matching"
museum piece is stuck in the garage waiting for the perfect master cylinder.
(That's casting 7523314, 1st quarter 63, second shift. If anyone has
one...)

Sorry so long, Bill L. #8^)







---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Myjak (email redacted)


[emotional plea suspended...]
> Sorry so long, Bill L. #8^)

Hear, Hear!

-
best regards,

- Michael D. Myjak
Senior Research Scientist
Institute for Simulation and Training
The University of Central Florida
email: <(email redacted).>
Voice: 407.658.5043 FAX: 407.658.5059 LAB: 407.658.5078

Off the keyboard, over the bridge, through the router..... Nothin' but Net!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted) (email redacted)

In a message dated 98-02-17 01:57:57 EST, you write:

<< Sorry so long, Bill L. #8^) >>


And how - thanks for saying what I'm sure we're all thinking!

Tom C
'65 K-Fastback (does anyone have MY matching block???? ;-)
'82 GT

---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: speegle (email redacted)

Bill Lynch wrote:

I accept and understand your feelings and believe you have your right to
choose your level of enjoyment, but would offer a different angle

> As an owner of a 1963 Corvette (under restoration) as well as a 1965
> Mustang 2+2 (nice driver) it amazes me to what extent people will go to
> worry about "matching numbers". (SNIP).......
>
> My point is that Mustangs were only $3,000 dollar cars! For Pete's sake,
> we used to buy them in the early '70s for $100 bucks! They aren't perfect;
> they aren't consistent. They are popular because they are FUN CARS!

IMHO Mustangs are popular because of demand if it was just fun there are
alot more cars that are just as fun but not as popular/ in demand



> Why can't people just enjoy the hobby? Enjoy the cars? ....

For many of us this is enjoyment we did the fix or repair daily route.
Built dozens of them and now look to a new challenge and enjoyment. The
search and documentation of those little details about the car. Talking
to the workers and engineers, enjoying the cars as they were built not
someones changes or modifications. No one I know says you have to enjoy
the cars the same way but we realize from being involved with other
marques that in time (and presently) there will be people who will want
to know what these cars looked like when they were new and if someone
does not document and research these things they will be lost. Look at
all the questions we have now with "what color should this be" and
similar questions.



> I say, if you can't live without a VIN on your block, then stamp one on
> there and leave the rest of us alone. You'll sleep better knowing your
> numbers match, and I'll sleep better knowing I have a real neat car out
> front that I can drive all over the place because my "numbers matching"
> museum piece is stuck in the garage waiting for the perfect master cylinder.
> (That's casting 7523314, 1st quarter 63, second shift. If anyone has
> one...)

Sorry if we disturbed your sleep during our discussion of VIN
stampings guess it required alot of deleting on your part. Simlar to
those times when we have the in depth discussions about compression
ratios or the 15th time someone as can a 4V intake fit on a 2V motor. We
all in the same hobby, not all enjoying it the same way but the good
thing is that the hobby is big enough and deverse enough for all of us
to enjoy it our way IF we will be understanding and not demand that
others adopt our beliefs and the law.

Sorry.......... until later


Jeff Speegle
MCA ANHJ

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mustang Research Letter
geocities.com/MotorCity/6473/
Mustang & Shelby research, documentation, and help.
Where sharing with one .. means sharing with all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted) (email redacted)

I tend to agree with Jeff. It is nice that the Mustang hobby can be enjoyed
by all ages and groups. I think it is just this type of diversification that
makes our "hobby" great!!
Concerning this forum, I find it quite interesting to pick up tidbits of info
from very knowledgable sources while also hearing from people who are
experiencing "run of the mill" problems for the first time. If all who use
this link will keep in mind that they may be in a different stage of the hobby
or have a different interest or need, but we can all learn from one another
and enjoy the free flow of information (or debate!!!).
Ok, I'm off the soapbox now!
Anyway, let's all continue to share our knowledge and curiousity and keep the
Mustang alive and kicking for years to come!!!
Tony

---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Myjak (email redacted)


Tony <(email redacted)> writes:
> I tend to agree with Jeff...

Thats nice. Whether or not we "agree" with Jeff is irrelevant. So
far, all I've seen "published" on these pages is lip-service. *IF*
Ford stamped engines with VINs (or partials) then there should be
documentation...

all I'm asking of you "believers" is to produce it.

There were a finite number of engines used the pony from 65-73, 3
assembly plants, and as many body styles. It shouldn't be that
difficult for you to produce a spread sheet of engines, years,
assembly plant, and VIN stamped location(s), if any.

Produce this list.

The rest of us will then validate your claims with our cars. The proof
is in the pudding, so to speak, guys and gals. Either this is fact,
or fantisy. Put up... or shut up. If your data is consistent, we'll
know it. If not, we'll know that too.

-Michael
'68 Mustang Conv't
'92 T'bird SC

---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: speegle (email redacted)

Myjak wrote:
>
> Tony <(email redacted)> writes:
> > I tend to agree with Jeff...
>
> Thats nice. Whether or not we "agree" with Jeff is irrelevant. So
> far, all I've seen "published" on these pages is lip-service.

I'm sorry you must have missed the quotes I placed in my responses

> *IF* Ford stamped engines with VINs (or partials) then there should be
> documentation...
>
> all I'm asking of you "believers" is to produce it.

OK where do you want coipes of the pagss I referred to sent to?


> There were a finite number of engines used the pony from 65-73, 3
> assembly plants, and as many body styles. It shouldn't be that
> difficult for you to produce a spread sheet of engines, years,
> assembly plant, and VIN stamped location(s), if any.
>
> Produce this list.



Do you want a list of the VINS from engines with stamped engines or
what.... Remember I did not say Mustangs the documentation referrs to
all Fords. Sorry I asked (in my last note) what you and others would
like produced .... but I need a little clarification. The quote earlier
included the word "all" and the years after 1967 on standard plants. the
reference did not note any exclusion by plant or year.

We all agree with "There were a finite number of engines used the pony
from 65-73"
But there were additional number that were fairly identical produced as
replacement, across the counter, supplied to engine builders (got
pictures of Holman and Moody kneeling in front of a room filled with
small block on pallets) and ones that have been machined or altered for
one reason or another.

> The rest of us will then validate your claims with our cars. The proof
> is in the pudding, so to speak, guys and gals. Either this is fact,
> or fantisy. Put up... or shut up. If your data is consistent, we'll
> know it. If not, we'll know that too.

Why do we assume my cars or even yours are correct and original.

If Ford says all 65 coupes came with trunk lids and your does not have
one is the statment incorrect?

If documentation says no AC's were available with Boss 302's (yes I
choose that on purpose and you find one that does does that make
the documentation wrong and that car correct. I get the feeling that
you will not be satified ... especially since you seem have already
checked and seem to believe your findings. We can not make the VIN
appear on your engines and IMHO believe if everyone in the group said
their cars had them and yours did not I truely doubt, from the tone of
your note, that you would accept our opinion. I hope that I'm wrong....


Rolled out my engines that I had covered up in the garage.

C5 standard 289 ...... no vin (fits the documentation)
standard 289 ...... has a Merc assembly vin (fits the documentation)
Hi performance 289 ...... has San Jose vin 5R23XXXXX (fits the
documentation)
428 CJ ...... Has San Jose vin- 9R12XXXfits the documentation)
428 CJ ...... Has no vin Area has not been filed or machined
428 CJ ...... Has San Jose vin- 9R132XXfits the documentation)
Standard 429 out a T-Bird ... Has vin(fits the documentation)
C8 Boss 302 ...... Has no vin pad, not machined small "C" still
visible
DO Boss 302 ...... Has no vin pad, not machined small "C" still
visible
3 Toploader trans ......65, 68, and 69 vins (fits the documentation)
C6 trans ..... Has 71 vin (fits the documentation)


Jeff Speegle
MCA ANHJ

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mustang Research Letter
geocities.com/MotorCity/6473/
Mustang & Shelby research, documentation, and help.
Where sharing with one .. means sharing with all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted) (email redacted)

Micheal,
May I suggest you try to keep comments about post to this list in context.
What I was agreeing about was the diversification of people and experiences
that are shared here. The debate about the elusive VIN stampings was not the
topic of my reply.
Since I can not say what position is the "most" correct, I made no attempt to
do so.

When talking about the topic of VIN stamping on blocks, we must remember we
are talking about vechicles that are 30 + yrs. old. I have seen people say
every car they have dealt with had the stampings, others say the have not seen
the same. This debate could (and probably will) go on for the forseeable
future. Everybody will and should have a point of view and we should all
respect the variation thereof. Also keep in mind, for every 1 owner car that
the owner knows all the facts on the car, there are literally hundreds of
thousands that have been passed from a variety of owners who didn't know or
car about the car other then as transportation!

Anyway, let's try to keep it "light" and good natured. Kindness and
understanding of other's position is crucial to the future of our hobby and
also just good manners....
Nuff said
Tony

---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Bill Lewis (email redacted)

speegle <(email redacted)> wrote:

[snip]
>
> Not all dealer modifications are considered "orginal " to most people.
>
>
> 67's with 428's (Q?'s) installed by the dealer. And not Shelby's ...
> don't really understand why a dealer would install an everyday Galaxie
> 4V 428 in a Mustang when things like 427's were available.

Cost, or overall performance characteristics.


> (BTW never heard this story before but I did hear one about Ford
> installing 6 cylinders in place of K codes to get the cars down to
> Shelby where the engines met up with the bodies and were installed )
>
> Jeff Speegle
> MCA ANHJ

Why would Ford put a 6-cylinder in a car just to deliver it to Shelby
when there were things like trucks and trailers available?

Bill

---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Michael Melson (email redacted)

Bill Lewis wrote:

> speegle <(email redacted)> wrote:
>
> > (BTW never heard this story before but I did hear one about Ford
> > installing 6 cylinders in place of K codes to get the cars down to
> > Shelby where the engines met up with the bodies and were installed )
> >
> > Jeff Speegle
> > MCA ANHJ
>
> Why would Ford put a 6-cylinder in a car just to deliver it to Shelby
> when there were things like trucks and trailers available?
>
> Bill

I also thought all K codes left the factory w/ the VIN of their respective
bodies, stamped into them. Wouldn't shipping the body w/o the engine, result
in Shelby's w/ no VIN cast into the engine?

Not that I would put something as ridiculous as this, past Ford, but I think
this is a myth. Like the pink '66 Shelby convertible Carroll made for his
secretary.


--
Mike
'90 F-150
'67 Shelby GT 500 wannabe
Ponyboy's Garage- '64 1/2-'68 Mustang parts
home.earthlink.net/~ponyboy428/
I'm always looking for '67-8 Shelby and Mustang fastback specific parts.
Also 428 CJ specific parts, let me know what you have.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: speegle (email redacted)

TO Michael and Bill

> > speegle <(email redacted)> wrote:
> >
> > > (BTW never heard this story before but I did hear one about Ford
> > > installing 6 cylinders in place of K codes to get the cars down to
> > > Shelby where the engines met up with the bodies and were installed )
> > >
> > > Jeff Speegle
> > > MCA ANHJ
> >
> > Why would Ford put a 6-cylinder in a car just to deliver it to Shelby
> > when there were things like trucks and trailers available?
> >
> > Bill
>
> I also thought all K codes left the factory w/ the VIN of their respective
> bodies, stamped into them. Wouldn't shipping the body w/o the engine, result
> in Shelby's w/ no VIN cast into the engine?
>
> Not that I would put something as ridiculous as this, past Ford, but I think
> this is a myth. Like the pink '66 Shelby convertible Carroll made for his
> secretary.

Yes it is false but just wanted to make a point that people will tend to
believe what they want to and what they convince themselves of.

I remember this one since I over heard it and the teller of the story
was attempting to show me how little I knew about Shelbys (since I
didn't even know this "fact"


Jeff Speegle
MCA ANHJ

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mustang Research Letter
geocities.com/MotorCity/6473/
Mustang & Shelby research, documentation, and help.
Where sharing with one .. means sharing with all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Myjak (email redacted)

>> There were a finite number of engines used the pony from 65-73, 3
>> assembly plants, and as many body styles. It shouldn't be that
>> difficult for you to produce a spread sheet of engines, years,
>> assembly plant, and VIN stamped location(s), if any.

>> Produce this list.

> Do you want a list of the VINS from engines with stamped engines or
> what.... Remember I did not say Mustangs the documentation referrs
> to all Fords. Sorry I asked (in my last note) what you and others
> would like produced .... but I need a little clarification.

Jeff,

You've got your nose to close to the book here. If "all" 1968 (and
later) fords (mustangs included) were marked with "matching numbers,"
Where do we (mustang owners) look?

Rather than see 1,000 mesages of the form "I've got a <mumble> in my
19<mumble> mustang, where's the number suposed to be again??" Just
tell us.

Give us a list of engine (6cyl-429) year (1968-73) and
location... where we can find said number(s). For extra credit, list
the engine type, year, and model of any earlier mustangs with similar
markings... :-)

-Michael
'68 Mustang Conv't
'92 T'bird SC



---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Myjak (email redacted)

(I tried to send this once before... but mailfail prevented me... :-(

Jeff Speegle wrote:
> Do you want a list of the VINS from engines with stamped engines or
> what.... Remember I did not say Mustangs the documentation referrs
> to all Fords. Sorry I asked (in my last note) what you and others
> would like produced .... but I need a little clarification. The
> quote earlier included the word "all" and the years after 1967 on
> standard plants. the reference did not note any exclusion by plant
> or year.

As Scott said, we need more information before we can make a judgement
one way or the other. Jeff, what we need is a break down of vehicle
(Mustangs, obviously), engine (200 through 429), transmission
(various), and year ('68-73). For each of the aforementioned vehicle
combinations, we need to know the location of the <partial> VINs.

A spread sheet organized around this information would provide each of
us with the ability to search our own vehicles and validate (or
invalidate) the claims made in this formum regarding Vins and Block
Stampings.

I hope this is clearer... If a sizable percentage of the group here
collects this data on their vehicles... we'll soon know the results.

Cheers!
-Michael
'68 Mustang Conv't
'92 T'bird SC

---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: speegle (email redacted)

Myjak wrote:
>
>
> As Scott said, we need more information before we can make a judgement
> one way or the other. Jeff, what we need is a break down of vehicle
> (Mustangs, obviously), engine (200 through 429), transmission
> (various), and year ('68-73). For each of the aforementioned vehicle
> combinations, we need to know the location of the <partial> VINs.

Hayes reprinted the list I included earlier for the locating of those I
know. A trip to the yard would be required to locate the physical
location of additional engines.



> A spread sheet organized around this information would provide each of
> us with the ability to search our own vehicles and validate (or
> invalidate) the claims made in this formum regarding Vins and Block
> Stampings.

I'm still interested in this but I'm wondering how one will determine
original engines without a VIN, those that were replacement and those
that have been modified in one or more ways.

> I hope this is clearer... If a sizable percentage of the group here
> collects this data on their vehicles... we'll soon know the results.

As we said in the beginning, most of us agreed that this was a murchy
subject. And it appears that few have changed or modified their original
stand after all this discussion. But I'm will to continue posting or
sharing what year and size engine I find with VINs.



Jeff Speegle
MCA ANHJ

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mustang Research Letter
geocities.com/MotorCity/6473/
Mustang & Shelby research, documentation, and help.
Where sharing with one .. means sharing with all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
For information on Subscribing and Unsubscribing as well as a list
archive please visit:

antler.webworks.ca/cm