Classic Mustangs List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: David L. Burkhead (email redacted)

Yesterday, while I was at work, my wife tried to make a trip in my
Mustang (I had the Corolla). It wouldn't start, wouldn't even turn
over. When I got home, I found that the wire from starter solenoid to
starter was burnt off at the solenoid end. Replaced the wire but still
wouldn't start--helper outside said that solenoid "kicked" (I could see
that from where I sat with the hood up) and smoked. I got a new
solenoid which I haven't replaced yet but am worried that the problem
might be with the starter--maybe drawing too much current which caused
both the wire burnout and the solenoid smoking.

Any suggestions? And just how big a problem is replacing the starter?
Can it be done without too much problem just wriggling under the car or
do I need to get it up on jackstands? Is it an afternoon's work or a
week's? Any special tools I need other than screwdrivers and
combination wrenches?

--
David L. Burkhead "If I had eight hours to
Advanced Surface Microscopy, Inc. cut down a tree, I'd spend
mailtoemail redacted) seven sharpening my axe,"
a1.com/asm Abraham Lincoln
disclaimer: none of the opinions in this message are necessarily
those of ASM, Inc.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Scott Hollenbeck (email redacted)

At 06:40 AM 8/6/97 PDT, David L. Burkhead wrote:
>Yesterday, while I was at work, my wife tried to make a trip in my
>Mustang (I had the Corolla). It wouldn't start, wouldn't even turn
>over. When I got home, I found that the wire from starter solenoid to
>starter was burnt off at the solenoid end. Replaced the wire but still
>wouldn't start--helper outside said that solenoid "kicked" (I could see
>that from where I sat with the hood up) and smoked. I got a new
>solenoid which I haven't replaced yet but am worried that the problem
>might be with the starter--maybe drawing too much current which caused
>both the wire burnout and the solenoid smoking.
>
>Any suggestions? And just how big a problem is replacing the starter?
>Can it be done without too much problem just wriggling under the car or
>do I need to get it up on jackstands? Is it an afternoon's work or a
>week's? Any special tools I need other than screwdrivers and
>combination wrenches?

Starter replacement is technically easy, but sometimes difficult
because of where the thing's mounted -- sometimes the bolts are just
plain hard to reach. It basically boils down to this:

1. Remove negative battery cable from negative battery post.
2. Remove starter cable from starter.
3. Remove bolts (3 or 4) holding starter to block and bellhousing.
4. Pull starter out.

Installation is the reverse of the above steps. If you have a
good set of 6 point sockets, extensions, and a u-joint (all to help
reach bolts) you should be able to do the job in an hour or so.
Definitely put the car up on jackstands to give yourself some room to
work.

----->
Scott A. Hollenbeck (mailtoemail redacted))
1970 R code Mach 1, 1970 H code Mach 1 parts car

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Richard George (email redacted)


------ =_NextPart_000_01BCA24A.E0418080
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The problem is probably not with your starter but if it were it's no =
problem to replace. You will have to jack the car up but once your =
underneath you simply remove a few bolts and it will drop down, no =
special tools. Rebuilt starters are cheap, around $30. I'm no expert =
but I wouldn't think you need a starter. Maybe someone else will have =
the answer to what the real problem is.

Richard

----------
From: David L. Burkhead[SMTPemail redacted)]
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 8:40 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: [CM:4865] Starter wire, solenoid, starter problem

Yesterday, while I was at work, my wife tried to make a trip in my
Mustang (I had the Corolla). It wouldn't start, wouldn't even turn
over. When I got home, I found that the wire from starter solenoid to
starter was burnt off at the solenoid end. Replaced the wire but still
wouldn't start--helper outside said that solenoid "kicked" (I could see
that from where I sat with the hood up) and smoked. I got a new
solenoid which I haven't replaced yet but am worried that the problem
might be with the starter--maybe drawing too much current which caused
both the wire burnout and the solenoid smoking.

Any suggestions? And just how big a problem is replacing the starter?=20
Can it be done without too much problem just wriggling under the car or
do I need to get it up on jackstands? Is it an afternoon's work or a
week's? Any special tools I need other than screwdrivers and
combination wrenches?

--=20
David L. Burkhead "If I had eight hours to
Advanced Surface Microscopy, Inc. cut down a tree, I'd spend
mailtoemail redacted) seven sharpening my axe,"
a1.com/asm Abraham Lincoln
disclaimer: none of the opinions in this message are necessarily
those of ASM, Inc.


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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Eric F. Riggert (email redacted)

David,

> Yesterday, while I was at work, my wife tried to make a trip in my
> Mustang (I had the Corolla). It wouldn't start, wouldn't even turn
> over. When I got home, I found that the wire from starter solenoid to
> starter was burnt off at the solenoid end. Replaced the wire but still
> wouldn't start--helper outside said that solenoid "kicked" (I could see
> that from where I sat with the hood up) and smoked. I got a new
> solenoid which I haven't replaced yet but am worried that the problem
> might be with the starter--maybe drawing too much current which caused
> both the wire burnout and the solenoid smoking.

I've seen this before - on a '77 Mercury Comet with a 302. And almost
on my own '66 GT (289). When you can see the wire move, that means that
there's a LOT of current going through it. If the wire's old, the
reason it was 'burnt off' at the end was probably that with this large
amount of current (probably more than even a properly functioning
starter would use), the wire literally melted at it's highest resistance
point, where the resistance causes heat. It is not unusual for old
wires to corrode at one end (or even inside the insulation, if the
insulation is pierced or cracked) and fail to properly handle high
current loads properly.

To me, since the new solenoid also died due to a high current (smoking!)
I'd guess that the problem is 'downstream' of the solenoid. Which only
leaves the large cable going from the solenoid to starter (which melted
in the first place), and the starter itself.

Usually, a starter is INTENDED to draw a lot of current. It is, for all
intents an purposes, a very large cylinder with a shorted wire inside.
The shorted wire just happens to wrap around a motor winding, generating
a magnetic field, turning the motor shaft, engaging a bendix gear drive,
turning your flywheel/flexplate, and eventually starting your car. The
usual failure method for a starter is for it to go 'high' resistance -
where 'high' is a relative term, meaning like 1/2 ohm or more here. At
1/2 ohm resistance, the starter is limited to 12V/1/2 = 24 amps of
current (not much, really, when you consider starting an engine). At
1/10 ohm, the same starter would draw *120* amps to start the engine,
which starts to make more sense. This usual failure mechanism is
often caused by overheating the starter by turning it for extended
periods, like when re-starting the car after major engine repairs.

This is not what seems to have happened in your case - the above failure
would NOT cause a smoking solenoid and burned starter wire.

Only one thing, that I can think of, can cause your symptoms - a short
somewhere in the starter cable or in the starter itself to ground, which
bypasses the motor winding, and, because it goes directly to ground,
causes a very high current due to very low resistance (1/100 ohm would
give 1200 AMPs, which is far more than the battery can safely deliver,
for example).

An unlikely place for this short would be inside the case of the
starter, and would require replacing the starter.

A far more likely place is the cable that runs from the solenoid to the
starter. From the factory, this cable is run along the bottom of the
block on the passenger side, using some sheetmetal loops which bolt to
the block. (On my car the cooling lines are also retained by these
loops, but I have no idea if that's stock). The loops are well grounded
because they are bolted directly to the engine block. They may have
originally been rubber insulated, but on my car, they are now plain
metal. And the edges are sharp, and they can abrade the insulation,
eventually causing a short. (I imagine this process would be
accelerated if the engine mounts are shot, since the engine would move
around more, making the wire rub the metal edge more often). Another
possible reason for a short here is that the engine gets hot, and the
insulation on the wire is slowly baked and dried. On my car, the
insulation had cracked and fallen off in several places, leaving a this
fairly large +12V cable open to the elements. Fortunately, it did not
short, it could easily have done so, and so could yours. One of these
two failures was also the failure on the '77 Mercury Comet that I worked
on so many years ago (mom's car way back when). I went through several
solenoids and a starter before I figured this out as a teenager.

> Any suggestions? And just how big a problem is replacing the starter?
> Can it be done without too much problem just wriggling under the car or
> do I need to get it up on jackstands? Is it an afternoon's work or a
> week's? Any special tools I need other than screwdrivers and
> combination wrenches?

Well, the starter isn't all that difficult to replace (other than being
difficult to get to unless you have a good jack and stands, or at least
ramps or a tall curb nearby). Only two bolts hold the starter to the
bellhousing. The one on the bottom may be pretty beat up from road
debris or other mechanics. The one on top is difficult to see from
underneath. Go by feel if necessary, and it's not a terribly difficult
job. The starter itself is surprisingly heavy for it's size, so when
you wriggle it loose don't drop it on any important body parts.
Disconnect the wires from the starter before you start (and probably go
ahead and disconnect the battery while you're at it). This should take
no more than an afternoon, even if it's really grungy and difficult to
remove. Normal hand tools are perfectly fine for this.

But also go ahead and check the condition of the wire from the solenoid
to the starter before you replace the starter. You'll have to get
underneath the car to see it up close, but since this is easier and
perhaps cheaper to fix (depending on what type of replacement you buy),
I'd say it's worth it.

Regards,
Eric Riggert, '66 Mustang GT, '88 LX 5.0, '94 Cobra, SCOASCC, SMA
(email redacted)

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Randy Siwik (email redacted)


David, Starters are easy to replace. If you keep buying the
"rebuilt" $29.99 Auto-Zone type you'll get plenty of
practice doing it too! (That's been my experience)

If you're starter was going south, it could create enough resistance
to burn up the wires you described, or at least get them smoking.
I would, along w/ a new good starter, check/inspect/clean/replace
both battery cables and the solenoid to starter cable.
Also the engine ground strap should be checked too.
You want a good clean connection on all these parts.

This is a common (click-click, no starter crank) problem.
Good Luck,

Randy Siwik 70 Mach 1 351W 4V 4-speed.
Central Ohio 70 Galaxie 500 Fastback.


>
>David writes;
>
>--- It wouldn't start, wouldn't even turn
>over. When I got home, I found that the wire from starter solenoid to
>starter was burnt off at the solenoid end. Replaced the wire but still
>wouldn't start--helper outside said that solenoid "kicked" (I could see
>that from where I sat with the hood up) and smoked. I got a new
>solenoid which I haven't replaced yet but am worried that the problem
>might be with the starter--maybe drawing too much current which caused
>both the wire burnout and the solenoid smoking.
>
>Any suggestions? And just how big a problem is replacing the starter?
>Can it be done without too much problem just wriggling under the car or
>do I need to get it up on jackstands? Is it an afternoon's work or a
>week's? Any special tools I need other than screwdrivers and
>combination wrenches?
>
>--
>David L. Burkhead "If I had eight hours to
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Rick Larson (email redacted)

Scott writes:

> Starter replacement is technically easy, but sometimes difficult
> because of where the thing's mounted -- sometimes the bolts are just
> plain hard to reach. It basically boils down to this:
[snip]
> Definitely put the car up on jackstands to give yourself some room to
> work.

Or just crawl under and try to ignore the pool of melting ice water
flowing down the back of your neck, back, pants, ...

Somethings you just don't forget :-).

rick
'66 coupe/'71 F100 daily driver
--
Rick Larson (email redacted)
Minneapolis

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted) (email redacted)

> Starter replacement is technically easy, but sometimes difficult
> because of where the thing's mounted -- sometimes the bolts are just
> plain hard to reach. It basically boils down to this:
[snip]
> Definitely put the car up on jackstands to give yourself some room to
> work.

Or just crawl under and try to ignore the pool of melting ice water
flowing down the back of your neck, back, pants, ...

Somethings you just don't forget :-).

And before you get older and wiser, sometimes you do things like start
the motor, and pull the starter before things get too hot. Drive the
starterless car to the parts store five miles away. Park on the hill
next to the store, and exchange the starter. Coast down the hill to
bump start the car, then drive to your class at school (on time).
After class you install the new (read: rebuilt, I was a student at the
time) starter in the parking lot, and drive home.

Lane