"replacing a car's body" : Classic Mustangs List Archive : Ford First

"replacing a car's body" #1
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 15, 2002 07:46 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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I just had something suggested to me by a coworker, and he
said it's legal. I'd like your opinions; I have no idea how
you'll react.

As I've said on this list before, the body on my '66 coupe
is shot. But I do have a title for it. I have a second
body that does not have a title.

It was suggested that I cut out all of the places where the
VIN is stamped on the car with the title, and have them
welded into the new body.

Something seems strange about this, but thinking about it,
I can make a very good argument for its legality. Try it
this way. I'd be replacing every part of my original car's
body except for the metal on which the VIN is stamped in
various locations. In other words, I'd be using a single,
gigantic patch panel.

FWIW, I plan to use the engine from my original car as well.

What do you think?

Matt T.
'66 coupe
'95 GT

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I just had something suggested to me by a coworker, and he
 said it's legal.  I'd like your opinions; I have no idea how
 you'll react.


As I've said on this list before, the body on my '66 coupe
 is shot.  But I do have a title for it.  I have a second 
 body that does not have a title.  


It was suggested that I cut out all of the places where the 
 VIN is stamped on the car with the title, and have them
 welded into the new body.


Something seems strange about this, but thinking about it, 
 I can make a very good argument for its legality.  Try it 
 this way.  I'd be replacing every part of my original car's
 body except for the metal on which the VIN is stamped in 
 various locations.  In other words, I'd be using a single,
 gigantic patch panel.


FWIW, I plan to use the engine from my original car as well.


What do you think?


Matt T.
 '66 coupe
 '95 GT


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"replacing a car's body" #2
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 15, 2002 07:57 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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In a message dated 01/15/2002 5:47:49 PM Central Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

> As I've said on this list before, the body on my '66 coupe
> is shot. But I do have a title for it. I have a second
> body that does not have a title.
>
> It was suggested that I cut out all of the places where the
> VIN is stamped on the car with the title, and have them
> welded into the new body.
>
>

Sounds like a big NO, to me. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that would be
considered the same as taking the vin off of one car to change the vin of a
car you just stole. Don't mis-read me folks, I'm not saying he stole the
other Mustang, just a hypothetical.

I could be wrong though. On vehicles with frames it's the frame that gets
the vin. That's how Carroll Shelby was able to start producing
honest-to-by-God brand new 60's Cobras a year or so ago. He had titled
frames in the shop from the 60's (or possibly 70's, I don't know when he
stopped producing them originally).

So, who knows? I sure don't. Maybe you could swap the bodies & keep the
entire inner fender & whatever other panels might have the vin on them.

bill
bill

64.5 Mustang: warmed over 260, 3 sp, a/c, SVO cam, Performer intake, Holley
390, Pertronix, Hi-Po dual exhaust, 1.5" A arm drop kit w/neg. wedge kit, 1"
lowered rear, Jacobs wires

66 Mustang: '93 5.0, C4 w/shift kit, a/c, ps, Performer RPM, Holley 600,
Pertronix, bench seat w/seat belt light

Colt SP1, Sig P220, Mossberg 590A1

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<HTML>In a message dated 01/15/2002 5:47:49 PM Central Standard Time, (email redacted) writes: 
 
 
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">As I've said on this list before, the body on my '66 coupe 
is shot.  But I do have a title for it.  I have a second 
body that does not have a title.  
 
It was suggested that I cut out all of the places where the 
VIN is stamped on the car with the title, and have them 
welded into the new body. 
 
</BLOCKQUOTE> 
 
Sounds like a big NO, to me.  Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that would be considered the same as taking the vin off of one car to change the vin of a car you just stole.  Don't mis-read me folks, I'm not saying he stole the other Mustang, just a hypothetical. 
 
I could be wrong though.  On vehicles with frames it's the frame that gets the vin.  That's how Carroll Shelby was able to start producing honest-to-by-God brand new 60's Cobras a year or so ago.  He had titled frames in the shop from the 60's (or possibly 70's, I don't know when he stopped producing them originally). 
 
So, who knows?  I sure don't.  Maybe you could swap the bodies & keep the entire inner fender & whatever other panels might have the vin on them. 
 
bill 
bill 
 
64.5 Mustang: warmed over 260, 3 sp, a/c, SVO cam, Performer intake, Holley 390, Pertronix, Hi-Po dual exhaust, 1.5" A arm drop kit w/neg. wedge kit, 1" lowered rear, Jacobs wires 
 
66 Mustang: '93 5.0, C4 w/shift kit, a/c, ps, Performer RPM, Holley 600, Pertronix, bench seat w/seat belt light 
 
Colt SP1, Sig P220, Mossberg 590A1</HTML>

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"replacing a car's body" #3
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 15, 2002 08:45 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Walt Boeninger)

Tampering with a VIN, IE transferring the VIN to a
different body, is a federal crime........

FWIW

------
Regards

Walt Boeninger - Nor Cal SAAC 67 GT500 | 67 Shelby T-A #31
norcal-saac.org 71 Boss 351 | 97 5.0 Explorer
mailto sad smiley

email redacted) 99 C5 Hdtp | 86 Mustang GT

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"replacing a car's body" #4
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 15, 2002 08:48 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Walt Boeninger)

RE:

I could be wrong though. On vehicles with frames it's the frame that gets the
vin. That's how Carroll Shelby was able to start producing honest-to-by-God
brand new 60's Cobras a year or
so ago. He had titled frames in the shop from the 60's (or possibly 70's, I
don't know when he stopped producing them originally).

That was more than a few years ago and Calif DMV stopped it, I believe.
That's why all you get from Shelby now are new cars. With optional
Kirkham aluminum bodies.

------
Regards

Walt Boeninger - Nor Cal SAAC 67 GT500 | 67 Shelby T-A #31
norcal-saac.org 71 Boss 351 | 97 5.0 Explorer
mailto sad smiley

email redacted) 99 C5 Hdtp | 86 Mustang GT

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"replacing a car's body" #5
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 15, 2002 08:59 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Edward Chase)

Sure, while you're at it weld in a Shelby VIN number...

It's *not* legal...

At 05:33 PM 1/15/2002 -0600, Tiemeyer, Matt wrote:

>I just had something suggested to me by a coworker, and he
>said it's legal. I'd like your opinions; I have no idea how
>you'll react.
>
>As I've said on this list before, the body on my '66 coupe
>is shot. But I do have a title for it. I have a second
>body that does not have a title.
>
>It was suggested that I cut out all of the places where the
>VIN is stamped on the car with the title, and have them
>welded into the new body.
>
>Something seems strange about this, but thinking about it,
>I can make a very good argument for its legality. Try it
>this way. I'd be replacing every part of my original car's
>body except for the metal on which the VIN is stamped in
>various locations. In other words, I'd be using a single,
>gigantic patch panel.
>
>FWIW, I plan to use the engine from my original car as well.
>
>What do you think?
>
>Matt T.
>'66 coupe
>'95 GT

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"replacing a car's body" #6
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 15, 2002 09:09 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Bryan Fuller)

We'll you can't really say that "it's legal" because technically you
are swapping VINs just like someone would to change VINs on a stolen
car or something. But you are right when it comes down to it, you're
just replacing another part of the car. You can backhalf a car
legally, and you can fronthalf (front clip) a car, so instead of
cutting it in half twice why not just use the whole thing at once? On
a frame'd car you can swap the whole body. What makes a vehicle that
particular vehicle? Is it the frame rails, the quarter panels, the
doors, the fenders? All those pieces are replacable. Is it the VIN
itself? That's the one thing that you can't buy a replacement for. So
if that's it, then you still have "the car" and are replacing
everything else around it. IMHO it's your call on what you want to do,
I don't think that the "laws" fit well in the case of restoring
unibody cars.

Tuesday, January 15, 2002, 3:33:42 PM, you wrote:

TM> I just had something suggested to me by a coworker, and he
TM> said it's legal. I'd like your opinions; I have no idea how
TM> you'll react.

TM> As I've said on this list before, the body on my '66 coupe
TM> is shot. But I do have a title for it. I have a second
TM> body that does not have a title.

TM> It was suggested that I cut out all of the places where the
TM> VIN is stamped on the car with the title, and have them
TM> welded into the new body.

TM> Something seems strange about this, but thinking about it,
TM> I can make a very good argument for its legality. Try it
TM> this way. I'd be replacing every part of my original car's
TM> body except for the metal on which the VIN is stamped in
TM> various locations. In other words, I'd be using a single,
TM> gigantic patch panel.

TM> FWIW, I plan to use the engine from my original car as well.

TM> What do you think?

TM> Matt T.
TM> '66 coupe
TM> '95 GT

---
Bryan Fuller
themustangshop.com - wabba.net
1968 "GT-351" Mustang - 1970 Mach 1 - 1970 Boss 302
1999 Cobra Convert - 2000 F-350 PSD DRW CC 6spd

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"replacing a car's body" #7
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 16, 2002 03:45 AM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Chuck Colvin)

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"replacing a car's body"Sorry Matt, but in California this would be
considered illegal.

What I have done is use a "bill of sale" to generate a new title for several
cars that were off the DMV computers.

I did this for a 1968 Torino GT FB 390 4 speed, 1969 Talladega and a 1969
Fairlane 500 FB.

When I buy a car that has no title, I call AAA (Automobile Club of Southern
California, as a member I can do my DMV there) and give them the VIN #
first, to make sure that there are no "back" DMV charges, then I get a "bill
of sale" form signed by the seller and his drivers license #.

Then I take the car to AAA, they confirm the Vin# and issue a new title in
my name. Trying to do this at the DMV is tough but they do have a form that
a police officer can sign off on to confirm the VIN#.

Getting a title can also be done through a "lien sale" if the car is still
registered.

Either of these alternatives would be better than breaking the law and
possibly loosing your car latter.

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailto sad smiley

email redacted)]On Behalf Of Tiemeyer,
Matt
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 3:34 PM
To: '(email redacted)'
Subject: [CM] "replacing a car's body"

I just had something suggested to me by a coworker, and he
said it's legal. I'd like your opinions; I have no idea how
you'll react.

As I've said on this list before, the body on my '66 coupe
is shot. But I do have a title for it. I have a second
body that does not have a title.

It was suggested that I cut out all of the places where the
VIN is stamped on the car with the title, and have them
welded into the new body.

Something seems strange about this, but thinking about it,
I can make a very good argument for its legality. Try it
this way. I'd be replacing every part of my original car's
body except for the metal on which the VIN is stamped in
various locations. In other words, I'd be using a single,
gigantic patch panel.

FWIW, I plan to use the engine from my original car as well.

What do you think?

Matt T.
'66 coupe
'95 GT

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<DIV>Sorry=20
Matt, but in California this would be considered =
illegal.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What I=20
have done is use a "bill of sale" to generate a new title for several =
cars that=20
were off the DMV computers.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I did=20
this for a 1968 Torino GT FB 390 4 speed, 1969 Talladega and a 1969 =
Fairlane 500=20
FB.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When I=20
buy a car that has no title, I call AAA (Automobile Club of Southern =
California,=20
as a member I can do my DMV there) and give them the VIN # first, to =
make sure=20
that there are no "back" DMV charges, then I get a "bill of =
sale" form=20
signed by the seller and his drivers license #.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Then I=20
take the car to AAA, they confirm the Vin# and issue a new title in my =
name.=20
Trying to do this at the DMV is tough but they do have a form that a =
police=20
officer can sign off on to confirm the VIN#.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Getting a title can also be done through a "lien sale" if the =
car is=20
still registered.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Either=20
of these alternatives would be better than breaking the law and possibly =
loosing=20
your car latter.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chuck</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D183042707-16012002> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D183042707-16012002> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D183042707-16012002> -----Original =
Message----- From:=20
(email redacted)=20
[mailto sad smiley

email redacted)]On Behalf Of =
Tiemeyer,=20
Matt Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 3:34 PM To:=20
'(email redacted)' Subject: [CM] "replacing =
a car's=20
body" </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> 
I just had something suggested to me by a coworker, =
and=20
he said it's legal.  I'd like your =
opinions; I=20
have no idea how you'll react. 
As I've said on this list before, the body on my '66 =

coupe is shot.  But I do have a title =
for=20
it.  I have a second body that does not =
have a=20
title.  
It was suggested that I cut out all of the places =
where the=20
 VIN is stamped on the car with the title, =
and have=20
them welded into the new body. 
Something seems strange about this, but thinking =
about it,=20
 I can make a very good argument for its=20
legality.  Try it this way.  I'd =
be=20
replacing every part of my original car's body except=20
for the metal on which the VIN is stamped in various=20
locations.  In other words, I'd be using a single, =
 <FONT=20
size=3D2>gigantic patch panel. 
FWIW, I plan to use the engine from my original car =
as=20
well. 
What do you think? 
Matt T. '66 coupe =
 <FONT=20
size=3D2>'95 GT </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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"replacing a car's body" #8
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 16, 2002 10:41 AM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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> Tampering with a VIN, IE transferring the VIN to a
> different body, is a federal crime........

Well, that's the issue. One could just as easily say that
I'm transferring the body to a different VIN, rather than
transferring the VIN to a different body. And at least in
Kansas, the rules are somewhat different for unibody cars
versus body-on-frame vehicles, though I'm not sure how
that bears on the discussion.

Let's extend the argument: suppose that instead of just
cutting out the metal right around where the VIN is
stamped on each side, maybe I use the whole panel. What
about the whole fender? What about everything from the
firewall forward?

If I took my car to a shop and replaced the panels piece
by piece, it wouldn't be an issue. But what we're saying
here is that replacing all of the panels at the same time
is a no-no. I would like to understand this from a legal
perspective, because from a logical perspective, it makes
no sense whatsoever. Especially when I own both cars.

Matt
'66 Coupe(s) with identity crisis
'95 GT

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> Tampering with a VIN, IE transferring the VIN to a 
 > different body, is a federal crime........


Well, that's the issue.  One could just as easily say that
 I'm transferring the body to a different VIN, rather than
 transferring the VIN to a different body.  And at least in 
 Kansas, the rules are somewhat different for unibody cars
 versus body-on-frame vehicles, though I'm not sure how 
 that bears on the discussion.


Let's extend the argument:  suppose that instead of just 
 cutting out the metal right around where the VIN is 
 stamped on each side, maybe I use the whole panel.  What
 about the whole fender?  What about everything from the 
 firewall forward?


If I took my car to a shop and replaced the panels piece
 by piece, it wouldn't be an issue.  But what we're saying
 here is that replacing all of the panels at the same time
 is a no-no.  I would like to understand this from a legal
 perspective, because from a logical perspective, it makes
 no sense whatsoever.  Especially when I own both cars.


Matt
 '66 Coupe(s) with identity crisis
 '95 GT


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"replacing a car's body" #9
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 16, 2002 11:25 AM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Scott Hall)

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Tiemeyer, Matt wrote:

> Let's extend the argument: suppose that instead of just
> cutting out the metal right around where the VIN is
> stamped on each side, maybe I use the whole panel. What
> about the whole fender? What about everything from the
> firewall forward?

we've been through this before here. I'd go along with your line of
thinking--replace all the panels on the titled car with those from the
untitled car. do it quickly and don't cut the panels from the untitled
car to get them off--be efficient and take them in one chunk, i.e. the
whole body at once. you're not putting the vin onto a different car,
you're putting a new body onto the car you already have. no harm, no
foul. sure, yada, yada, yada, if this was an attempt to be fraudulent or
of this was a 'one-of-two-produced' or a racecar it might be different,
but this is your driver. asking this particular question here is only
going to get you a lot of responses like you've seen from people concerned
with what color paint is on the driveshaft.

> aIf I took my car to a shop and replaced the panels piece
> by piece, it wouldn't be an issue. But what we're saying
> here is that replacing all of the panels at the same time
> is a no-no. I would like to understand this from a legal
> perspective, because from a logical perspective, it makes
> no sense whatsoever. Especially when I own both cars.

I'd have to say that legally, if you don't get caught, it isn't illegal.
but--and this is important--I wouldn't go mentioning this to your state
dmv. like everybody else said, this is how you hide a stolen car. since
you *didn't* steal the car, I'd say do your thing.

on the other hand, do what somebody else suggested and get a title for the
car you have. you can do that in some states, and there's a service in
connecticut (I think) that after checking the vin will issue you a ct
title which you can then use to get a title where you live.

scott

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"replacing a car's body" #10
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 16, 2002 02:16 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Columbo Ron-P19467)

>
> on the other hand, do what somebody else suggested and get a
> title for the
> car you have. you can do that in some states, and there's a
> service in
> connecticut (I think) that after checking the vin will issue you a ct
> title which you can then use to get a title where you live.
>
I think there may be an alternative if you check with your DMV *beforehand*.

Explain the problem to DMV
Get both cars inspected by DMV
DMV issues a "newly updated VIN", "replacement VIN", or otherwise "This VIN replaces old VIN" number
DMV issues new plate to put on car indicating the new VIN (they may suggest what to do with old, stamped numbers or old plate)
DMV probably invalidates (meaning in their database) old VIN numbers from both cars.
DMV *may* want receipt showing salvage/reclamation of no-good-hulk.

I believe this is the way Arizona would handle it, BUT I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE. Unless you are into heavy MCA concours judging, then the new plate/VIN number should never present a problem. You're legal all the way.

However, check with your DMV beforehand for the best answer to this problem.

Hope this helps,
Ron Columbo
Chandler, AZ
64-1/2 Conv
65 GT FB
65 FB
70 Mach I

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"replacing a car's body" #11
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 16, 2002 05:42 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Ron Cordes)

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Well Matt lets through this at you, on the 71 to 73 mustang you can =
remove the door (tag is worthless anyway can be bought brand new with a =
simple phone call to mustangs unlimited) and pull the dash panel(metal) =
and replace it with one from another car (of same construction) and none =
the wiser Now if the donor car was to appear with out a VIN somewhere =
(another builders house, or the junk yard) you may get in a small amount =
of trouble especially if the officer assigned to your case has a bug up =
his rectal cavity.

but your right, what would be the difference between taking EVERY panel =
even from after market or from OEM (they did make a fire wall patch =
panel, or a striker patch panel, even on other cars) and replacing it on =
your car what if the front clip damaged the firewall, or the dash =
rotted away why cant you replace the offending panel or in my case just =
the dash panel that attaches to the dash pad four screws and it comes =
out, what if the cops came to your house and your car was dismantled, =
and there where no ID plates on it?

Could they take your car because you "removed" your VIN numbers?

Ron...Sorry about the tangent! sad smiley

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<DIV>Well Matt lets through this at you, on =
the 71 to 73=20
mustang you can remove the door (tag is worthless anyway can be bought =
brand new=20
with a simple phone call to mustangs unlimited) and pull the dash =
panel(metal)=20
and replace it with one from another car (of same construction) and none =
the=20
wiser Now if the donor car was to appear with out a VIN somewhere =
(another=20
builders house, or the junk yard) you may get in a small amount of =
trouble=20
especially if the officer assigned to your case has a bug up his rectal=20
cavity.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>but your right, what would be the =
difference=20
between taking EVERY panel even from after market or from OEM (they did =
make a=20
fire wall patch panel, or a striker patch panel, even on other cars) and =

replacing it on your car what if the front  clip damaged the =
firewall, or=20
the dash rotted away why cant you replace the offending panel or in my =
case just=20
the dash panel that attaches to the dash pad four screws and it comes =
out, what=20
if the cops came to your house and your car was dismantled, and there =
where no=20
ID plates on it?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Could they take your car because you =
"removed" your=20
VIN numbers?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ron...Sorry about the tangent! =20
sad smiley

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"replacing a car's body" #12
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 16, 2002 07:23 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Well, Chuck, a bill of sale isn't sufficient in Kansas to do
what you propose. Rules for unibody vehicles are different than
for body-on-frame vehicles, and without the actual title, a bill
of sale carries no weight here. I do have one, useless as it is
right now.

You might also be interested to know that the friend who suggested
this didn't do it himself. Instead, he took the other legal
option that I supposedly have available in this state: pursue
a title through a "quiet title" court proceeding. This has two
distinct drawbacks: 1) it often results in the court instructing
the Highway Commission (?) to issue a new VIN for the car, and
2) in this case, it cost him $1500 by the time he paid all of the
court costs and legal fees.

What a nightmare.

--------------

>Sorry Matt, but in California this would be
>considered illegal.

>What I have done is use a "bill of sale" to generate a new title for
several
>cars that were off the DMV computers.

>I did this for a 1968 Torino GT FB 390 4 speed, 1969 Talladega and a 1969
>Fairlane 500 FB.

>When I buy a car that has no title, I call AAA (Automobile Club of Southern
>California, as a member I can do my DMV there) and give them the VIN #
>first, to make sure that there are no "back" DMV charges, then I get a
"bill
>of sale" form signed by the seller and his drivers license #.

>Then I take the car to AAA, they confirm the Vin# and issue a new title in
>my name. Trying to do this at the DMV is tough but they do have a form that
>a police officer can sign off on to confirm the VIN#.

>Getting a title can also be done through a "lien sale" if the car is still
>registered.

>Either of these alternatives would be better than breaking the law and
>possibly loosing your car latter.

>Chuck

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Well, Chuck, a bill of sale isn't sufficient in Kansas to do 
 what you propose.  Rules for unibody vehicles are different than
 for body-on-frame vehicles, and without the actual title, a bill
 of sale carries no weight here.  I do have one, useless as it is
 right now.


You might also be interested to know that the friend who suggested
 this didn't do it himself.  Instead, he took the other legal
 option that I supposedly have available in this state:  pursue
 a title through a "quiet title" court proceeding.  This has two
 distinct drawbacks:  1) it often results in the court instructing
 the Highway Commission (?) to issue a new VIN for the car, and
 2) in this case, it cost him $1500 by the time he paid all of the 
 court costs and legal fees.


What a nightmare.


--------------


>Sorry Matt, but in California this would be
 >considered illegal.


>What I have done is use a "bill of sale" to generate a new title for several
 >cars that were off the DMV computers.


>I did this for a 1968 Torino GT FB 390 4 speed, 1969 Talladega and a 1969
 >Fairlane 500 FB.


>When I buy a car that has no title, I call AAA (Automobile Club of Southern
 >California, as a member I can do my DMV there) and give them the VIN #
 >first, to make sure that there are no "back" DMV charges, then I get a "bill
 >of sale" form signed by the seller and his drivers license #.


>Then I take the car to AAA, they confirm the Vin# and issue a new title in
 >my name. Trying to do this at the DMV is tough but they do have a form that
 >a police officer can sign off on to confirm the VIN#.


>Getting a title can also be done through a "lien sale" if the car is still
 >registered.


>Either of these alternatives would be better than breaking the law and
 >possibly loosing your car latter.


>Chuck


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"replacing a car's body" #13
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 16, 2002 09:39 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted) (Chris Kelly)

You'd be pretty safe to assume that every state has a law regarding VIN
switching, making it illegal. The main theme, I'd guess, is that if you
sell a car with a doctored VIN at the very least you are misrepresenting
the car's authenticity. It's pretty much a fraud, no matter how you slice
it. If you are doing it with no intention of ever selling the car, then
just don't tell us or anyone else and make your own decision. Similar to
this "problem" I did have the "opportunity" to dispose of a car with two
VIN's once. I had bought it as a parts car with no title. The seller
moved so after and never produced the promised title. After taking the car
apart, I discovered two VINs - one on the radiator support and another
under the fender that matched the door tag. So, this car was repaired at
least once with the radiator support being the replaced part (it's VIN did
not match the year of the car). Hmmm - called a cop friend. He ran a
trace on the VIN's and one (rad support) was not in the computer, the other
traced to a fellow in Missouri. Wreckers will not touch a car without a
title, so he gave me a plan. I beat the hell out of the tracable VIN -
obscuring it, dropped the door tag in a jug of pool acid, shoved the car
out into the ditch across the street in the middle of the night, then
called the cops the next day to report an "abandoned vehicle". A wrecker
showed up shortly, he wrote down the visible VIN, I signed a paper as the
complainant and away it went. And the bitch is - I didn't get that many
salvagable parts off the thing. It had a nice hood, fenders and doors but
the fenders and one door turned out to be 70% bondo.
========The Kelly's==============
Chris - (email redacted)
Debbie - (email redacted)
users.abilene.com/~dkelly
Merkel, Texas
=================================

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"replacing a car's body" #14
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 17, 2002 01:50 AM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Jeff Speegle)

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On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:37:27 -0500, Ron Cordes wrote:
........................................
>but your right, what would be the difference between taking=
EVERY
>panel even from after market or from OEM (they did make a fire=
wall
>patch panel, or a striker patch panel, even on other cars) and
>replacing it on your car what if the front clip damaged the
>firewall, or the dash rotted away why cant you replace the
>offending panel or in my case just the dash panel that attaches=
to
>the dash pad four screws and it comes out, what if the cops=
came to
>your house and your car was dismantled, and there where no ID
>plates on it?

They can impound the car

>Could they take your car because you "removed" your VIN=
numbers?

Answer - Yes

--
Jeff Speegle, (email redacted) on 01/16/2002
geocities.com/MotorCity/6473/

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On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:37:27 -0500, Ron Cordes wrote: 
<FONT=
COLOR=3D"#000080">.........................................=
 
>but your right, what would be=
the difference  between taking EVERY 
>panel even from after market or=
from OEM (they did make a  fire wall 
>patch panel, or a striker patch=
panel, even on other cars) and 
>replacing it on your car what if=
the front  clip damaged the 
>firewall, or  the dash=
rotted away why cant you replace the 
>offending panel or in my case=
just  the dash panel that attaches to 
>the dash pad four screws and it=
comes out, what  if the cops came to 
>your house and your car was=
dismantled, and there where no  ID 
>plates on it?
 
They can impound the car 
 
>Could they take your car because=
you "removed" your  VIN=
numbers? 

Answer - Yes  

 
 
--
 Jeff Speegle, (email redacted) on 01/16/2002
geocities.com/MotorCity/6473/
 
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"replacing a car's body" #15
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 17, 2002 03:50 AM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (John Dettori)

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"replacing a car's body"Matt,

Don't ask a purist, and certainly not any enthusiast who cares about the
value of his Mustang! You have better options anyway.

Don't swap a VIN from one car to another. There's no interpretation here;
it's fraud and it's a crime in every state, as well as federally. Get a title for
the car with the good body. Motor vehicles will issue you one. Then if you
want to swap the engine or any other part from the car who's body is shot
- except those stamped with a VIN - go ahead.

I don't understand what happened to the car with no title - where I live (NY)
was not a title state until 1973. Your registration and bill of sale are your transfer
papers and proof of ownership. The only thing that could interfere with that
is if a car is "junked". Once that happens, the VIN is removed from the usual
spots. If someone wanted to put a junked car back on the road, DMV would
have to issue a new VIN.

If this hassle is more than you're willing to bear, sell both cars, and invest the
proceeds into a car with clear title. No fuss, no muss.

====================================================================
John Dettori 01 Cobra (4.6l 6A cool smiley

Sr. Manager 86 SVO (2.3l IT)
KPMG Consulting, Inc. 70 Mach I (351C-4V)
(email redacted) 67 GT350 (289-4V SC)
516 298 7072 67 GT Conv (289-4V)

----- Original Message -----
From: Tiemeyer, Matt
To: '(email redacted)'
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 6:33 PM
Subject: [CM] "replacing a car's body"

I just had something suggested to me by a coworker, and he
said it's legal. I'd like your opinions; I have no idea how
you'll react.

As I've said on this list before, the body on my '66 coupe
is shot. But I do have a title for it. I have a second
body that does not have a title.

It was suggested that I cut out all of the places where the
VIN is stamped on the car with the title, and have them
welded into the new body.

Something seems strange about this, but thinking about it,
I can make a very good argument for its legality. Try it
this way. I'd be replacing every part of my original car's
body except for the metal on which the VIN is stamped in
various locations. In other words, I'd be using a single,
gigantic patch panel.

FWIW, I plan to use the engine from my original car as well.

What do you think?

Matt T.
'66 coupe
'95 GT

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<DIV>Matt,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Don't ask a purist, and certainly not any
enthusiast who cares about the</DIV>
<DIV>value of his Mustang!  You have better
options anyway.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Don't swap a VIN from one car to another. 
There's no interpretation here;</DIV>
<DIV>it's fraud and it's a crime in every state, as
well as federally.  Get a title for</DIV>
<DIV>the car with the good body.  Motor vehicles
will issue you one.   Then if you </DIV>
<DIV>want to swap the engine or any other part from the
car who's body is shot</DIV>
<DIV>- except those stamped with a VIN - go
ahead.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't understand
what happened to the car with no title - where I live (NY) </DIV>
<DIV>was not a title
state until 1973.  Your registration and bill of sale are your
transfer</DIV>
<DIV>papers and proof of ownership.  The only
thing that could interfere with that</DIV>
<DIV>is if a car is "junked".  Once that happens,
the VIN is removed from the usual</DIV>
<DIV>spots.  If someone wanted to put a junked car
back on the road, DMV would</DIV>
<DIV>have to issue a new VIN.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If this hassle is more than you're willing to
bear, sell both cars, and invest the</DIV>
<DIV>proceeds into a car with clear title.  No
fuss, no muss.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>====================================================================  John
Dettori                              
01 Cobra    (4.6l 6A cool smiley

Sr.
Manager                               
86 SVO       (2.3l IT)  KPMG Consulting,
Inc.                     
70 Mach I    (351C-4V)  <A
href="mailto sad smiley

email redacted)">(email redacted)</A>                    
67 GT350   (289-4V SC)  516 298
7072                              
67 GT Conv    (289-4V) </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A title=(email redacted) href="mailto sad smiley

email redacted)">Tiemeyer, Matt</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A
title=(email redacted)
href="mailto:'(email redacted)'">'(email redacted)'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 6:33
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: [CM] "replacing a car's
body"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV> 
I just had something suggested to me by a coworker, and
he said it's legal.  I'd like your opinions; I
have no idea how you'll react. 
As I've said on this list before, the body on my '66
coupe is shot.  But I do have a title for
it.  I have a second body that does not have a
title.  
It was suggested that I cut out all of the places where the
 VIN is stamped on the car with the title, and have
them welded into the new body. 
Something seems strange about this, but thinking about it,
 I can make a very good argument for its
legality.  Try it this way.  I'd be
replacing every part of my original car's body except
for the metal on which the VIN is stamped in various
locations.  In other words, I'd be using a single, gigantic patch panel. 
FWIW, I plan to use the engine from my original car as
well. 
What do you think? 
Matt T. '66 coupe '95 GT </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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"replacing a car's body" #16
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 17, 2002 08:27 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Gordon Couch)

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"replacing a car's body"I have been following this conversation with some
interest. Not because I am thinking of doing it myself, but because body
switching is done everyday, and no one gets arrested. On the contrary, they
are complimented on how good their car looks when they are finished. And I
don't condone switching VIN tag from one to another, that is illegal and
anyone caught doing so should be arrested and punished.

What I am talking about is using a donor to scavenge parts for the "good"
car. Or even buying NOS or Repop parts as replacements. How many of you out
there have rebuilt your old 'stang by taking a door from a salvage yard and
replaced the VIN tag with the one from the "good" original car's door? A
fender and quarter from a donor and put them on the "good" car? Did you buy
floor pans and replace them? How about the front right inner fender or the
balloon (cowl)? When you finished, did you have the original "good" car, or
was it a collection of parts from other cars and places?

I know with my own '65, there is little that is original that does not have
some kind of repair made to it, and it was drivable and looked pretty decent
when I bought it. As of today, two years later, the only things that are
from the original "good" car are the hard top, trunk lid, right quarter
(lower rear repaired) and the glass on the exterior. Within a month it will
have all new suspension and have the right inner fender and the engine
compartment brace changed. In essence, the body that Ford originally put on
the car in August 1964 is gone, replaced with bits and pieces from wherever
I could find the best deal. Do the numbers match? Yes and no. Yes, because
the VINs match where they are supposed to because I didn't replace the
structural pieces where VINs are stamped. No because there are a lot of
repop parts in there and they don't have the original Ford part number
stamped or printed on them. Have I done anything illegal? I sure hope not,
otherwise we all deserve to be in the pokey.

Long and short of it, use what you need from the "salvage" car to replace
what isn't so good on the "good" car and everything should be within the
law. Just don't switch the VIN tags from one to the other and expect
everything to be hunky dory, cause it ain't.

Gordon Couch
(865) 694-0605
Knoxville, TN

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>I have been following this =
conversation with=20
some interest. Not because I am thinking of doing it myself, but because =
body=20
switching is done everyday, and no one gets arrested. On the contrary, =
they are=20
complimented on how good their car looks when they are finished. And I =
don't=20
condone switching VIN tag from one to another, that is illegal and =
anyone caught=20
doing so should be arrested and punished.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What I am talking about is using =
a donor to=20
scavenge parts for the "good" car. Or even buying NOS or Repop parts as=20
replacements. How many of you out there have rebuilt your old 'stang by =
taking a=20
door from a salvage yard and replaced the VIN tag with =
the one from=20
the "good" original car's door? A fender and quarter from a donor =
and put=20
them on the "good" car? Did you buy floor pans and replace =
them? How=20
about the front right inner fender or the balloon (cowl)? When you =
finished, did=20
you have the original "good" car, or was it a collection of parts from =
other=20
cars and places?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I know with my own '65, there is =
little that=20
is original that does not have some kind of repair made to it, and it =
was=20
drivable and looked pretty decent when I bought it. As of today, two =
years=20
later, the only things that are from the original "good" car are the =
hard top,=20
trunk lid, right quarter (lower rear repaired) and the glass on the =

exterior. Within a month it will have all new suspension and have the =
right=20
inner fender and the engine compartment brace changed. In essence, the =
body that=20
Ford originally put on the car in August 1964 is gone, replaced with =
bits and=20
pieces from wherever I could find the best deal. Do the numbers match? =
Yes and=20
no. Yes, because the VINs match where they are supposed to because I =
didn't=20
replace the structural pieces where VINs are stamped. No because there =
are a lot=20
of repop parts in there and they don't have the original Ford part =
number=20
stamped or printed on them. Have I done anything illegal? I sure hope =
not,=20
otherwise we all deserve to be in the pokey.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Long and short of it, use what =
you need from=20
the "salvage" car to replace what isn't so good on the "good" car and =
everything=20
should be within the law. Just don't switch the VIN tags from one to the =
other=20
and expect everything to be hunky dory, cause it ain't.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gordon Couch (865) =
694-0605 Knoxville,=20
TN</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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"replacing a car's body" #17
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 18, 2002 01:04 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Randy Siwik)

--------------69A612DA4718FE94DC04CD96
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"Tiemeyer, Matt" wrote:

> I would like to understand this from a legal
> perspective, because from a logical perspective, it makes
> no sense whatsoever. Especially when I own both cars.
>
> Matt
>

Matt, there is common sense, then there is the law.

(Danger Will, Danger, danger,,, long post)

I have a 'friend' who has remodeled three houses.
Not a slum lord, just a guy updating a house
he lived in, selling it, and moving on.
He was not trying to rip someone off,
no substandard work, no shoddy materials.

The first time, ummm 'he', went through
all the correct government hoops. What a pain
in the rear end gears! Building permits from
all the correct departments, fees, various
inspectors who were more interested in his Mustang
in the garage then the new work he just completed,
and on and on and on.

He looked at it like you do. What If he only
replaced a washer in the faucet, or the faucet itself.
What if when he did this, he decides to put in a new sink
too. Well, while the sink is out, he'll drop on a new
counter top. Can't connect a new sink to old drains,
better get new trap. Those supply lines and shut offs
look bad, better put in some new ones. At what point
does a new washer in a faucet turn into a government
permission and inspection of HIS property?????

Well, he learned his lesson. He no longer
grovels to 'ze government fer das permission
und ze korrect papers' and he keeps his curtains and
his mouth shut.

As was stated earlier he, I mean I, would NEVER
condone moving the vins on rare cars, one offs, a
Shelby, a Boss, or whatever w/ the intend to
misrepresent the car. But, this is not the case.
Again, there is the intent of the law, then there
is common sense.

How many of you guys have 'GT' emblems on your
non GT cars, added pony interior? A 302 in a six
banger car? Do you feel you're committing fraud?
Did you seek permission from the government?
When you sell the car, will you tell the next owner;
"I just added the ______ because I like it,
It's not really a _______".
I hope so!

Before I pop a vein in my forehead, I better stop.

Good Luck Matt!

Randy 'I am not a lemming' Siwik
Central Ohio

You can't do that!
Why not?
Well, I don't know but it's against the law!
Gee, I guess you're right, but this tea sure is good!
--- a conversation George Washington never had

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"Tiemeyer, Matt" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> I would like to understand this
from a legal
 perspective, because from a logical perspective, it makes
 no sense whatsoever.  Especially when I own both
cars.
Matt
  </blockquote>

 Matt, there is common sense, then there is the law.
(Danger Will, Danger, danger,,, long post)
I have a 'friend' who has remodeled three houses.
 Not a slum lord, just a guy updating a house
 he lived in, selling it, and moving on.
 He was not trying to rip someone off,
 no substandard work, no shoddy materials.
The first time,  ummm 'he',  went through
 all the correct government hoops.  What a pain
 in the rear end gears!  Building permits from
 all the correct departments,  fees,  various
 inspectors who were more interested in his Mustang
 in the garage then the new work he just completed,
 and on and on and on.
He looked at it like you do.  What If he only
 replaced a washer in the faucet, or the faucet itself.
 What if when he did this, he decides to put in a new sink
 too.  Well, while the sink is out, he'll drop on a new
 counter top.  Can't connect a new sink to old drains,
 better get new trap.  Those supply lines and shut offs
 look bad, better put in some new ones.   At what point
 does a new washer in a faucet turn into a government
 permission and inspection of HIS property?????
Well, he learned his lesson.  He no longer
 grovels to 'ze government fer das permission
 und ze korrect papers'  and he keeps his curtains and
 his mouth shut.
As was stated earlier he, I mean I, would NEVER
 condone moving the vins on rare cars, one offs,  a
 Shelby, a Boss, or whatever w/ the intend to
 misrepresent the car.  But, this is not the case.
 Again, there is the intent of the law, then there
 is common sense.
How many of you guys have 'GT' emblems on your
 non GT cars,  added pony interior?  A 302 in a six
 banger car?   Do you feel you're committing fraud?
 Did you seek permission from the government?
 When you sell the car, will you tell the next owner;
 "I just added the ______ because I like it,
 It's not really a _______".
 I hope so!
Before I pop a vein in my forehead, I better stop.
Good Luck Matt!
Randy 'I am not a lemming' Siwik
 Central Ohio
You can't do that!
 Why not?
 Well, I don't know but it's against the law!
 Gee, I guess you're right, but this tea sure is good!
 --- a conversation George Washington never had
  </html>

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"replacing a car's body" #18
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 18, 2002 11:59 PM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) ((email redacted))

In a message dated 1/16/2002 4:43:08 PM, (email redacted) writes:

<< (tag is worthless anyway can be bought brand new with a simple phone call
to mustangs unlimited) >>

actually , the mustangs unlimited tag is just a little different than the
original....

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"replacing a car's body" #19
mailbot Mail List Archive Bot ., Online, USA	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 19, 2002 01:08 AM Joined 15 years ago 59,279 Posts

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Mail From: (email redacted) (Jeff Speegle)

This is a multipart message in MIME format

--24063734-POCO-66050660
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I too have been watching the thread .. not that this has not been=

discussed before... a few comments

On Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:26:53 -0500, Gordon Couch wrote:
>"replacing a car's body" I have been following this
>conversation with some interest. Not because I am thinking of=
doing
>it myself, but because body switching is done everyday, and no=
one
>gets arrested.

I differ to say that they have and do have at least the cars
impounded and destroyed in some cases. I been involved in at=
least
two in the last three years (not my cars, cars that others=
"owned)

The common discussion through the years is "at what point "
(percentage of vehicle) can be replaced before there is a=
problem?
The best IMHO reply is that it can be replaced up to the point=
where
it get attention or is obvious. Playing with VINs is a case (and=

asking for problems) for additional attention.

On top of this add the fact that the rules are applied very
differently from area to area... but who wants to run the=
risk....
it's your choice.

I seen some comments about getting the car re registered .... not=
a
bad idea for dealing with the problem (better than some of the
choices) but what you end up with a car that is difficult to=
resale
for much more that parts car value from my experience. What's the=

best way out? Start with a good car or at least a good unibody
numbers are everything winking smiley

Jeff Speegle

--24063734-POCO-66050660
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<BASEFONT FACE=3D"Arial" SIZE=3D"2" COLOR=3D"#000000">
</HEAD>
<BODY bgcolor=3D"#CBCDE2">
I too have been watching the thread .. not that this has not=
been discussed before... a few comments
 
On Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:26:53 -0500, Gordon Couch wrote: 
>"replacing a car's=
body"      I have been following=
this 
>conversation with  some=
interest. Not because I am thinking of doing 
>it myself, but because body=
 switching is done everyday, and no one 
>gets arrested.
 
I differ to say that they=
have and do have at least the cars impounded and destroyed in=
some cases. I been involved in at least two in the last three=
years (not my cars, cars that others "owne<FONT=
COLOR=3D"#000080">d)
 
The common discussion through the years is "at what point=
" (percentage of vehicle) can be replaced before there is a=
problem?
The best IMHO reply is that it can be replaced up to the point=
where it get attention or is obvious. Playing with VINs is a=
case (and asking for problems) for additional attention.
 
On top of this add the fact that the rules are applied very=
differently from area to area... but who wants to run the=
risk.... it's your choice. 
 
I seen some comments about getting the car re registered ....=
not a bad idea for dealing with the problem  (better than=
some of the choices) but what you end up with a  car that=
is difficult to resale for much more that parts car value from=
my experience. What's the best way  out? Start with a good=
car or at least a good unibody numbers are everything winking smiley

Jeff Speegle
</body></html>

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