Classic Mustangs List Archive

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Mail From: cjk22 (Christian Kronenwetter)

Well to simply answer the 12 vs. 134a question. If you are buying a Brand
new complete bolt on kit and your not concourse go for the 134a. It's
readily available completely legal. As long as the kit was designed for
134a it should blow cold (as cold as R12 probably not but I don't think you
would know the difference without a direct comparison). Do the other
learned gentlemen of the group agree?

Christian

_____

From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Jeff
Shanholtz
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 12:20 PM
To: Christian
Subject: Re: [CM] air conditioning kits


Just to be clear to everyone (especially since the thread has gone off on a
tangent relative to my original post), I'm not asking about conversion kits,
I'm asking about install kits - i.e. entire AC systems. It's been a good
discussion, but opinions on converting to different refrigerants in existing
systems only helps so much since I'm not doing a conversion.

I'm having trouble determining if 134a will cool as well as 12 in a system
designed for 134a, or how well alternative refrigerants work in brand new
systems compared to 134a or 12. I suppose I could conclude 134a systems
aren't as good as 12 systems merely by the fact that these aftermarket
systems give you the choice of 12 or 134a (why would they offer 12 systems,
which is now illegal to manufacture, if 134a is as good?).

I've done quite a bit of googling too, and so far that has brought no
clarity to the situation to me. Again, what I'm seeing relates to
conversions, and even then it's not clear which refrigerant is best. Maybe
my next step will be to contact the manufacturers (vintage air, classic auto
air) and see what they have to say on the topic.

_____

From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Gary
Dempsey
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 5:01 AM
To: jeffsubs at shanholtz.com
Subject: Re: [CM] air conditioning kits



I used one of the 134 conversion kits you used to get a wally mart. I used
it on an 85 Mustang and had no problems with when I sold the car 5 years
later. We used the air a lot in AL.



Gary Dempsey

93 Cobra #0375

03 Mustang Convert.

06 HD RoadKing

_____

From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Jeff
Shanholtz
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:36 PM
To: Gary Dempsey
Subject: Re: [CM] air conditioning kits



So that was a conversion from R12 to R134a then? I think I've heard that
R134a conversions aren't as good as systems that are R134a to begin with.
Anyone know if that's true? In other words, I wonder if buying one of these
kits as R134a right off the bat will perform better than if I had an R12
system that I converted?



_____

From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Paul
Sawyer
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:11 PM
To: jeffsubs at shanholtz.com
Subject: Re: [CM] air conditioning kits

J--



I have 134a in an original AC system. ONe of my biggest mistakes. It cools
ok--if the car starts cool (stays in the shade.) If the car is hot, forget
it and roll down the windows.



Even at 80 bucks a pound, r-12 is worth it, if you can find it. I USED to be
able to make it so cold that water would condense on the automatic shifter
handle. Not any more.



My mechanic said that 134a operates at a much higher pressure and there just
isn't enough room up front to get the air it needs. Plus, if there are any
seeps in the system, you'll know. I mothballed my old york compressor in
favor of a new sanden. It is a nice compressor that is much better sounding
that the york.



Up side is that you can get 134a anywhere and put it in yourself. Near as I
can tell, that's the only plus.



--P



On Mar 8, 2007, at 7:40 PM, Jeff Shanholtz wrote:





I searched the archives and found some interesting discussion on the
aftermarket kits (I actually started the discussion, then ended up not
buying one!). Well, I'm ready to get and install one, and I talked to one of
the sales guys at Mustangs Plus since they sell both Vintage and Classic
Auto (I wanted to get their opinion of the better unit, as well as pros and
cons). I thought I'd share what he said because it might be helpful for
other people too, and I want to see what you guys think. Also soliciting any
other advice, general opinions, or interesting notes on the topic.

P.S. I'm not planning to go with the stock look version and I have a 66
coupe.

1. He said the 2 units for 65/66 are very similar over all (not true
for 67 and up), but he gave the edge to CAA.

2. Regarding refrigerants, he said R134 in these units cools very well
(equal to an 07 mustang according to him), but he hasn't heard of ES-12a
(Lance mentioned this in that old discussion, and said it's better than R134
and R12). I know some people here have said they're not satisfied with the
cooling power of 134. Do you suppose that it could reflect a problem in
those installations? Or do you think he just doesn't know R12 enough from a
comparison standpoint to know any better? Also he said he's never heard of
ES-12a. Curious to hear opinions on this alternative (Lance and anyone
else).

3. I have those kick panels with the "raised" speaker holes, so I asked
if there would be any conflict with the registers that mount at the sides of
the dash. He said no problems there.

4. Asked if the heat/defrost/vents would be any different in terms of
functionality, and he said "better" because it's new/modern. I'd love to
hear if any of you noticed any difference in how well these worked after
your install.

5. Asked if getting replacement parts is a problem and he said no
problem at all.

6. Also I had noticed some reference to electric motors and asked him
about this. He said that while it uses the stock control panel, it actually
internally uses electric motors to control the internal doors (or whatever
you call them). I'm curious as to how this works, especially from the
standpoint of the control panel. Do you notice any difference in operation
(e.g. do the sliders feel more like discrete switches)? Any idea how this is
an improvement over the stock controls?

_______________________________________________

Classic-mustangs mailing list

Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca

lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs



Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/



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Mail From: Lance (Lance Robaldo)

Agreed. The current modern line of complete A/C systems designed for 134A
will cool just fine. The compressor will cycle on/off as it cools the car
and keep you quite comfortable..



Yes, R-12 cools more "efficiently". But face it, you don't want to keep
your car below 40 in 100 degree temperatures. I think we can all agree
that if you can cool the car to 75 in 100 degree weather, then that's good
enough. We're not trying to freeze meat in here.



I haven't installed it yet, but I have a CAA R134 unit sitting in my garage
waiting to go into my car. I'm looking at ES-12a as a refrigerant, but not
totally because R12 is better. I'm looking at using it because it works
terrific in both the R12 and the R134 systems and doesn't become acidic when
exposed to moisture like R12 and R134 do.



Lance.



_____

From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of
Christian Kronenwetter
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 1:28 PM
To: Lance at robaldo.com
Subject: [CM] R12 Vs. R134a



Well to simply answer the 12 vs. 134a question. If you are buying a Brand
new complete bolt on kit and your not concourse go for the 134a. It's
readily available completely legal. As long as the kit was designed for
134a it should blow cold (as cold as R12 probably not but I don't think you
would know the difference without a direct comparison). Do the other
learned gentlemen of the group agree?



Christian



_____

From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Jeff
Shanholtz
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 12:20 PM
To: Christian
Subject: Re: [CM] air conditioning kits

Just to be clear to everyone (especially since the thread has gone off on a
tangent relative to my original post), I'm not asking about conversion kits,
I'm asking about install kits - i.e. entire AC systems. It's been a good
discussion, but opinions on converting to different refrigerants in existing
systems only helps so much since I'm not doing a conversion.



I'm having trouble determining if 134a will cool as well as 12 in a system
designed for 134a, or how well alternative refrigerants work in brand new
systems compared to 134a or 12. I suppose I could conclude 134a systems
aren't as good as 12 systems merely by the fact that these aftermarket
systems give you the choice of 12 or 134a (why would they offer 12 systems,
which is now illegal to manufacture, if 134a is as good?).



I've done quite a bit of googling too, and so far that has brought no
clarity to the situation to me. Again, what I'm seeing relates to
conversions, and even then it's not clear which refrigerant is best. Maybe
my next step will be to contact the manufacturers (vintage air, classic auto
air) and see what they have to say on the topic.



_____

From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Gary
Dempsey
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 5:01 AM
To: jeffsubs at shanholtz.com
Subject: Re: [CM] air conditioning kits

I used one of the 134 conversion kits you used to get a wally mart. I used
it on an 85 Mustang and had no problems with when I sold the car 5 years
later. We used the air a lot in AL.



Gary Dempsey

93 Cobra #0375

03 Mustang Convert.

06 HD RoadKing

_____

From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Jeff
Shanholtz
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:36 PM
To: Gary Dempsey
Subject: Re: [CM] air conditioning kits



So that was a conversion from R12 to R134a then? I think I've heard that
R134a conversions aren't as good as systems that are R134a to begin with.
Anyone know if that's true? In other words, I wonder if buying one of these
kits as R134a right off the bat will perform better than if I had an R12
system that I converted?



_____

From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of Paul
Sawyer
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:11 PM
To: jeffsubs at shanholtz.com
Subject: Re: [CM] air conditioning kits

J--



I have 134a in an original AC system. ONe of my biggest mistakes. It cools
ok--if the car starts cool (stays in the shade.) If the car is hot, forget
it and roll down the windows.



Even at 80 bucks a pound, r-12 is worth it, if you can find it. I USED to be
able to make it so cold that water would condense on the automatic shifter
handle. Not any more.



My mechanic said that 134a operates at a much higher pressure and there just
isn't enough room up front to get the air it needs. Plus, if there are any
seeps in the system, you'll know. I mothballed my old york compressor in
favor of a new sanden. It is a nice compressor that is much better sounding
that the york.



Up side is that you can get 134a anywhere and put it in yourself. Near as I
can tell, that's the only plus.



--P



On Mar 8, 2007, at 7:40 PM, Jeff Shanholtz wrote:



I searched the archives and found some interesting discussion on the
aftermarket kits (I actually started the discussion, then ended up not
buying one!). Well, I'm ready to get and install one, and I talked to one of
the sales guys at Mustangs Plus since they sell both Vintage and Classic
Auto (I wanted to get their opinion of the better unit, as well as pros and
cons). I thought I'd share what he said because it might be helpful for
other people too, and I want to see what you guys think. Also soliciting any
other advice, general opinions, or interesting notes on the topic.

P.S. I'm not planning to go with the stock look version and I have a 66
coupe.

1. He said the 2 units for 65/66 are very similar over all (not true
for 67 and up), but he gave the edge to CAA.
2. Regarding refrigerants, he said R134 in these units cools very well
(equal to an 07 mustang according to him), but he hasn't heard of ES-12a
(Lance mentioned this in that old discussion, and said it's better than R134
and R12). I know some people here have said they're not satisfied with the
cooling power of 134. Do you suppose that it could reflect a problem in
those installations? Or do you think he just doesn't know R12 enough from a
comparison standpoint to know any better? Also he said he's never heard of
ES-12a. Curious to hear opinions on this alternative (Lance and anyone
else).
3. I have those kick panels with the "raised" speaker holes, so I asked
if there would be any conflict with the registers that mount at the sides of
the dash. He said no problems there.
4. Asked if the heat/defrost/vents would be any different in terms of
functionality, and he said "better" because it's new/modern. I'd love to
hear if any of you noticed any difference in how well these worked after
your install.
5. Asked if getting replacement parts is a problem and he said no
problem at all.
6. Also I had noticed some reference to electric motors and asked him
about this. He said that while it uses the stock control panel, it actually
internally uses electric motors to control the internal doors (or whatever
you call them). I'm curious as to how this works, especially from the
standpoint of the control panel. Do you notice any difference in operation
(e.g. do the sliders feel more like discrete switches)? Any idea how this is
an improvement over the stock controls?

_______________________________________________

Classic-mustangs mailing list

Classic-mustangs at lists.twistedpair.ca

lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs



Visit the Classic Mustang Wiki! sauce.donair.org/~cm/



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Mail From: keven (Coates, Keven)

Yes, I agree with Lance. No real difference in systems designed for
their refrigerants. Yes, R12 is about 20% more efficient, but newer
systems are probably that much more efficient mechanically so no real
difference.



I remember reading a Saturn brochure in '94. it said their R134 system
was actually _more_ efficient. They said that the system had been
redesigned to be mechanically better and therefore the reduced
refrigerant efficiency was overcome.



Keven

________________________________

From: classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca
[mailto:classic-mustangs-bounces at lists.twistedpair.ca] On Behalf Of
Lance Robaldo
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 1:12 PM
To: Coates, Keven
Subject: Re: [CM] R12 Vs. R134a



Agreed. The current modern line of complete A/C systems designed for
134A will cool just fine. The compressor will cycle on/off as it cools
the car and keep you quite comfortable..



Yes, R-12 cools more "efficiently". But face it, you don't want to keep
your car below 40 in 100 degree temperatures. I think we can all agree
that if you can cool the car to 75 in 100 degree weather, then that's
good enough. We're not trying to freeze meat in here.



I haven't installed it yet, but I have a CAA R134 unit sitting in my
garage waiting to go into my car. I'm looking at ES-12a as a
refrigerant, but not totally because R12 is better. I'm looking at
using it because it works terrific in both the R12 and the R134 systems
and doesn't become acidic when exposed to moisture like R12 and R134 do.



Lance.

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