Classic Mustangs List Archive

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Mail From: ffacker (Fred Facker)

Hey, I finally got the car running again (66 289 C-code, with GT manifold and 600cfm Holley 4150) after replacing the intake manifold and carburetor this weekend. I've got two new problems though.

First off, do I set my timing with the vacuum advance on or plugged? I've always just set it to about +10 with the line connected from the distributor to the carb. Should I be setting it to +6 with the vacuum plugged?

Next problem is that I bought what seems to be an identical 600 cfm Holley 4150, but now when I press the gas pedal, I can only bring the carb to about half throttle - it's nowhere near WOT and thus the transmission kickdown isn't being activated at all. I'm using the stock throttle rod and springs on the Holley. Is there some adjustment I'm missing on the carburetor itself that would rotate or adjust the throttle linkage somewhat? If not, any suggestions on how to adjust or replace my throttle rod? (I hope I'm calling that thing the correct name. I'm talking about the metal rod that comes from the pedal lever to the throttle linkage on the carburetor.)

Now the third problem is that if I turn the car off, The engine isn't wanting to start back up. It won't turnover. If I wait a minute or two it cranks up. I don't know if this is vapor lock or that it's just too hot or what? Any ideas?

Thanks for you help.

-Fred
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Mail From: dano (Dan O'Reilly)

At 07:02 PM 9/8/2004, Fred Facker wrote:
>Hey, I finally got the car running again (66 289 C-code, with GT manifold
>and 600cfm Holley 4150) after replacing the intake manifold and carburetor
>this weekend. I've got two new problems though.
>
>First off, do I set my timing with the vacuum advance on or plugged? I've
>always just set it to about +10 with the line connected from the
>distributor to the carb. Should I be setting it to +6 with the vacuum plugged?

Just installed a new (well, OK, reconditioned) carb from Pony Carbs in New
Mexico (a great place to buy from, by the way). Their recommendation for
setting timing is to simply adjust the distributor with the engine running
hot & at idle until it idles the fastest. My guess is my engine will come
in at about 12 degrees or better (I'll let you know; I'll be installing the
engine in my '66 coupe in a week or so). I have it manually timed at about
8 degrees right now.

>Now the third problem is that if I turn the car off, The engine isn't
>wanting to start back up. It won't turnover. If I wait a minute or two it
>cranks up. I don't know if this is vapor lock or that it's just too hot or
>what? Any ideas?

Sounds like your starter is heat-soaked. You may need a heat shield between
it and the exhaust pipes/manifold.

------
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
| Process Software | and those who don't." |
| process.com | |
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: cwdaniel (Cliff Daniel)

I'd be interested in seeing where you end up with the Pony Carb method of
timing. I ended up with over 30 degrees initial advance using their method.
Yikes! But I tried it a while. It ran allright but the ping on acceleration
was a problem. I've since re set it the conventional way, about 10 degrees.

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailtoemail redacted)]On Behalf Of Dan
O'Reilly
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:10 PM
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Subject: Re: [CM] One timing and two new carb questions


At 07:02 PM 9/8/2004, Fred Facker wrote:
>Hey, I finally got the car running again (66 289 C-code, with GT manifold
>and 600cfm Holley 4150) after replacing the intake manifold and carburetor
>this weekend. I've got two new problems though.
>
>First off, do I set my timing with the vacuum advance on or plugged? I've
>always just set it to about +10 with the line connected from the
>distributor to the carb. Should I be setting it to +6 with the vacuum
plugged?

Just installed a new (well, OK, reconditioned) carb from Pony Carbs in New
Mexico (a great place to buy from, by the way). Their recommendation for
setting timing is to simply adjust the distributor with the engine running
hot & at idle until it idles the fastest. My guess is my engine will come
in at about 12 degrees or better (I'll let you know; I'll be installing the
engine in my '66 coupe in a week or so). I have it manually timed at about
8 degrees right now.

>Now the third problem is that if I turn the car off, The engine isn't
>wanting to start back up. It won't turnover. If I wait a minute or two it
>cranks up. I don't know if this is vapor lock or that it's just too hot or
>what? Any ideas?

Sounds like your starter is heat-soaked. You may need a heat shield between
it and the exhaust pipes/manifold.

------
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
| Process Software | and those who don't." |
| process.com | |
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+


_______________________________________________
Classic-mustangs mailing list
(email redacted)
lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: speegle ((email redacted))

I've used a slightly different method to set mine for the last 20 or so years and it seems the most adaptive to different types of fuels and altitude. (and its simple) Advance your timing 4 degrees from stock until you get a ping under load then back it off to 2 degrees under where it dissapears. In this way your getting maxium advance (and power) for that given engine, engine condition (carbon build up for one thing) and fuel octane rating as well as other issues.

Works for me
JS
-----Original Message-----
From: Cliff Daniel <(email redacted)>
Sent: Sep 8, 2004 7:45 PM
To:
A list for owners of Classic Mustangs <(email redacted)>
Subject: RE: [CM] One timing and two new carb questions

I'd be interested in seeing where you end up with the Pony Carb method of
timing. I ended up with over 30 degrees initial advance using their method.
Yikes! But I tried it a while. It ran allright but the ping on acceleration
was a problem. I've since re set it the conventional way, about 10 degrees.

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailtoemail redacted)]On Behalf Of Dan
O'Reilly
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:10 PM
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Subject: Re: [CM] One timing and two new carb questions


At 07:02 PM 9/8/2004, Fred Facker wrote:
>Hey, I finally got the car running again (66 289 C-code, with GT manifold
>and 600cfm Holley 4150) after replacing the intake manifold and carburetor
>this weekend. I've got two new problems though.
>
>First off, do I set my timing with the vacuum advance on or plugged? I've
>always just set it to about +10 with the line connected from the
>distributor to the carb. Should I be setting it to +6 with the vacuum
plugged?

Just installed a new (well, OK, reconditioned) carb from Pony Carbs in New
Mexico (a great place to buy from, by the way). Their recommendation for
setting timing is to simply adjust the distributor with the engine running
hot & at idle until it idles the fastest. My guess is my engine will come
in at about 12 degrees or better (I'll let you know; I'll be installing the
engine in my '66 coupe in a week or so). I have it manually timed at about
8 degrees right now.

>Now the third problem is that if I turn the car off, The engine isn't
>wanting to start back up. It won't turnover. If I wait a minute or two it
>cranks up. I don't know if this is vapor lock or that it's just too hot or
>what? Any ideas?

Sounds like your starter is heat-soaked. You may need a heat shield between
it and the exhaust pipes/manifold.

------
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
| Process Software | and those who don't." |
| process.com | |
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+


_______________________________________________
Classic-mustangs mailing list
(email redacted)
lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs


_______________________________________________
Classic-mustangs mailing list
(email redacted)
lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: dano (Dan O'Reilly)

Frankly, I'm not sure I buy into the "turn it till it runs bad" method.
I don't think I really want to go much past about 12 degrees (at this
altitude, that's OK). Besides, their rationale was that "harmonic balancers
tend to get sloppy with age", and mine is brand-new. I'm going to check
it with my timing light and see where it ends up with their method.

At 08:45 PM 9/8/2004, Cliff Daniel wrote:
>I'd be interested in seeing where you end up with the Pony Carb method of
>timing. I ended up with over 30 degrees initial advance using their method.
>Yikes! But I tried it a while. It ran allright but the ping on acceleration
>was a problem. I've since re set it the conventional way, about 10 degrees.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: (email redacted)
>[mailtoemail redacted)]On Behalf Of Dan
>O'Reilly
>Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:10 PM
>To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
>Subject: Re: [CM] One timing and two new carb questions
>
>
>At 07:02 PM 9/8/2004, Fred Facker wrote:
> >Hey, I finally got the car running again (66 289 C-code, with GT manifold
> >and 600cfm Holley 4150) after replacing the intake manifold and carburetor
> >this weekend. I've got two new problems though.
> >
> >First off, do I set my timing with the vacuum advance on or plugged? I've
> >always just set it to about +10 with the line connected from the
> >distributor to the carb. Should I be setting it to +6 with the vacuum
>plugged?
>
>Just installed a new (well, OK, reconditioned) carb from Pony Carbs in New
>Mexico (a great place to buy from, by the way). Their recommendation for
>setting timing is to simply adjust the distributor with the engine running
>hot & at idle until it idles the fastest. My guess is my engine will come
>in at about 12 degrees or better (I'll let you know; I'll be installing the
>engine in my '66 coupe in a week or so). I have it manually timed at about
>8 degrees right now.
>
> >Now the third problem is that if I turn the car off, The engine isn't
> >wanting to start back up. It won't turnover. If I wait a minute or two it
> >cranks up. I don't know if this is vapor lock or that it's just too hot or
> >what? Any ideas?
>
>Sounds like your starter is heat-soaked. You may need a heat shield between
>it and the exhaust pipes/manifold.
>
>------
>+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
>| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
>| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
>| Process Software | and those who don't." |
>| process.com | |
>+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Classic-mustangs mailing list
>(email redacted)
>lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Classic-mustangs mailing list
>(email redacted)
>lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs

------
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
| Process Software | and those who don't." |
| process.com | |
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: davec (Dave Cunningham)


You should be setting the timing with the line plugged. However, if you are idling at about 700-800 RPM or so at the time, it really won't make more than 2 or 3 degree difference. I'm at about 16 degrees of initial timing which runs fine on 93 with some octane boost (89 or certainly 87 are not an option at that timing). If you are pinging at all, that's bad. But, you might want to try a higher octane before dropping the timing.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan O'Reilly [mailtoemail redacted)]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2004 11:54 PM
>To: 'A list for owners of Classic Mustangs'
>Subject: RE: [CM] One timing and two new carb questions
>
>Frankly, I'm not sure I buy into the "turn it till it runs bad" method.
>I don't think I really want to go much past about 12 degrees (at this
>altitude, that's OK). Besides, their rationale was that "harmonic balancers
>tend to get sloppy with age", and mine is brand-new. I'm going to check
>it with my timing light and see where it ends up with their method.
>
>At 08:45 PM 9/8/2004, Cliff Daniel wrote:
>>I'd be interested in seeing where you end up with the Pony Carb method of
>>timing. I ended up with over 30 degrees initial advance using their method.
>>Yikes! But I tried it a while. It ran allright but the ping on acceleration
>>was a problem. I've since re set it the conventional way, about 10 degrees.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: (email redacted)
>>[mailtoemail redacted)]On Behalf Of Dan
>>O'Reilly
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:10 PM
>>To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
>>Subject: Re: [CM] One timing and two new carb questions
>>
>>
>>At 07:02 PM 9/8/2004, Fred Facker wrote:
>> >Hey, I finally got the car running again (66 289 C-code, with GT manifold
>> >and 600cfm Holley 4150) after replacing the intake manifold and carburetor
>> >this weekend. I've got two new problems though.
>> >
>> >First off, do I set my timing with the vacuum advance on or plugged? I've
>> >always just set it to about +10 with the line connected from the
>> >distributor to the carb. Should I be setting it to +6 with the vacuum
>>plugged?
>>
>>Just installed a new (well, OK, reconditioned) carb from Pony Carbs in New
>>Mexico (a great place to buy from, by the way). Their recommendation for
>>setting timing is to simply adjust the distributor with the engine running
>>hot & at idle until it idles the fastest. My guess is my engine will come
>>in at about 12 degrees or better (I'll let you know; I'll be installing the
>>engine in my '66 coupe in a week or so). I have it manually timed at about
>>8 degrees right now.
>>
>> >Now the third problem is that if I turn the car off, The engine isn't
>> >wanting to start back up. It won't turnover. If I wait a minute or two it
>> >cranks up. I don't know if this is vapor lock or that it's just too hot or
>> >what? Any ideas?
>>
>>Sounds like your starter is heat-soaked. You may need a heat shield between
>>it and the exhaust pipes/manifold.
>>
>>------
>>+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
>>| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
>>| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
>>| Process Software | and those who don't." |
>>| process.com | |
>>+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Classic-mustangs mailing list
>>(email redacted)
>>lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Classic-mustangs mailing list
>>(email redacted)
>>lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>
>------
>+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
>| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
>| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
>| Process Software | and those who don't." |
>| process.com | |
>+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Classic-mustangs mailing list
>(email redacted)
>lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: W427 (David)

The Pony Carbs directions specifically say to initially set it at the
higest idle RPM - but then test drive it and reduce the advance until it
just barely stops pinging. This is effectively no different than
gradually increasing the initial advance until it pings and then backing
off. Either way, the desired result is maximum timing *without* pinging
under load.

The optional method is with a vacuum gauge - same goal, different
method. Reality is that it's still not quite right until the whole
advance curve is properly tailored for the specific car. But it's a
good start!

FWIW,
David

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: ckelly (ckelly)

FWIW - The 302 is set at 14 inital, 34 total in by 2500. We do not run any
vacuum advance. The car runs a set of one step cold Autolite race plugs
because it spends 90% of it's time at full throttle. Compression is 9.6:1.
This timing and the plugs puts the engine just a hair below detonation on 91
unleaded (highest we can buy here - unless you count the 105 VP for
$6/gallon at the strip). The "bump until fastest idle" has always been
rather bogus to me. If I used that method on the Duraspark dizzy I put in
the 302, we'd have 20+ initial and 55+ total. Then we'd back down to about
8 inital and 43 total to get it out of most detonation and it'd just barely
run. The curve really needs to be set for the motor. You want to run as
much inital as you can get away with - that's the easy part. But you have
to limit total to what the motor/fuel can stand - and with a Ford
distributor, that ain't easy as you have to disassemble and modify it. Some
of the Ford vacuum advance cans can be adjusted - if not, Crane and Accel
sell units that can be dinked with. It's worth the hassle - we race two
Fords and burn 10~15 gallons of super nolead 91 octane Shell every single
weekend and you won't find a can of booster anywhere in my shop. The 351C
runs 20 initial with 5 degrees start retard in the ignition box and 38 total
in by 2800.

Having a new balacer is good. It would be better if it was "dialed in" as
in verified for TDC. My experience is that they are off, sometimes by 2-3
degrees. The new balancer on the 302 was off by -2 and the rebuilt 351C was
off by -3. Couple that with the cam timing on the 351C being off by -3 and
you can see why some motors run real good while an equivalent appearing
motor can run real bad. Tolerances can really mess things up.

That's my 0000 0010 cents on the issue...

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:54:12 -0600, Dan O'Reilly wrote
> Frankly, I'm not sure I buy into the "turn it till it runs bad" method.
> I don't think I really want to go much past about 12 degrees (at this
> altitude, that's OK). Besides, their rationale was that "harmonic
balancers
> tend to get sloppy with age", and mine is brand-new. I'm going to check
> it with my timing light and see where it ends up with their method.
> >+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
> >| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
> >| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
> >| Process Software | and those who don't." |
> >| process.com | |
> >+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+


===================================
Chris Kelly
raceabilene.com
> Member <
Abilene Performance Car Association
Falcon Club of America
raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
===================================