Classic Mustangs List Archive

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Mail From: David Stone (email redacted)

Hi,

66 Fastback. drums alround non power.

I have a problem with my brakes but only after replacing the
following:

Rear drums (new)
Rear wheel cylinders
Shoes front and rear.

We have bleed the brakes several times (copious amounts of fluid,
new) and the pedal still goes to the floor.

There are no signs of leak. Everytime we go round and bleed each
wheel I can feel the pedal getting firm with each pump and yet we
have no brakes. So we remove rear drums and watch for travel on
piston rods which takes place and you refit drums and the wheel
will lock when I depress pedal (Bleeding each wheel now) and when
you have finished the last wheel and you nip the nipple thinking,
"Yep this is it" the pedal still drops to the floor.

The only thing that I have noticed is, when you depress the pedal
and you watch the master cylinder you can see it squirting out
(not bubbles). About ten months ago I re-sealed it (due to leaking
all over my shoes) but I have since used it with no problems. This
problem has only come about after replacing the said items.

I have contacted my local supplier with views to replacing the
master but he only has the 67/68 dual system.

How much is involved in doing this?

What is wrong with the system now?

Do I go for the dual?

Do I go for disks alround? (my flexible friend)

Or do I just have a mental breakdown!

Any thoughts on this would be very much appreciated.

Dave
66 Fastback (no brakes)


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Mail From: EFaille (email redacted)

In a message dated 98-03-22 02:50:51 EST, David wrote:

I have a problem with my brakes but only after replacing the
following:

Rear drums (new)
Rear wheel cylinders
Shoes front and rear.

We have bleed the brakes several times (copious amounts of fluid,
new) and the pedal still goes to the floor.

There are no signs of leak. Everytime..........

David, it sounds like your master cylinder is defectvie, often times upon
bleeding brakes, the master cylinder piston goes to an area in the bore of the
master cylinder that is normally not used, this area probably has some rust or
pitting and gouges the rubbers in the master cylinder causing the piston to
bypass fluid, hence you do not see any leaks, it's all happening inside the
system,

Hope that helps, replace the master cylinder with a new one or have yours
sleeved with bronze and you will never have this happen again.

Ed Faille
65 Fastback
Rock Hill, SC

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Mail From: David J. Hammar (email redacted)

On Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 07:40:27, (email redacted) (David Stone)
wrote:
>66 Fastback. drums alround non power.
>I have a problem with my brakes but only after replacing the
>following:
>Rear drums (new)
>Rear wheel cylinders
>Shoes front and rear.
>We have bleed the brakes several times (copious amounts of fluid,
>new) and the pedal still goes to the floor.

OK, first to start with the stupid questions:
Have you properly pre-set the self-adjusters by hand prior to doing all the
rest of this bleeding? If the shoes aren't set to the right point (i.e.
just a hair shy of "dragging" on the drum with the brake pressure
released), then the system could fully extend (i.e. pedal to the floor) and
*still* not have the shoes far extended far enough to lock the wheels --
particularly if all *four* wheels are in this "loose" condition.

Did you obtain the correct wheel cylinders? There are four diameters
available -- 13/16" (Correct for '64-1/2), 27/32" (Correct for 1965),
29/32" (correct for 1966), 7/8" (Correct for 1967-68). IIRC, changing
diameters can be bad -- i.e. too small may cause locking, too large might
cause weak (or no) response.

If your M/C worked prior to this brake work, I'd think it should still
operate now -- of course that isn't *necessarily* true Replacement 1966
Manual Drum M/C's aren't exactly tough to find -- you can order one from
National Parts Depot for USD 56.50 (plus shipping, of course...). Their
part number is "2140-3". For your 1966, you'll also need to order their
p/n 2B224-1 (USD 2.19) -- the clip which retains the pushrod in the Master
Cylinder piston (the new M/C doesn't come with a pushrod, so your old rod
must be transferred. This would also be a good time to replace the pushrod
bushing (NPD p/n 2474-2 USD 2.53) if yours is worn or missing.

Then you can take it down to your parts supplier and hit him/her over the
head with it -- maybe they'll start stocking the correct parts

>Do I go for the dual?
Well, some people safety-conscious owners prefer it for their "daily
drivers" -- however, it requires a couple of other modifications to fit it
onto your '66 -- mainly fabrication of at least one additional brake line
and the reworking of at least two others, and addition of a second
distribution block, IIRC -- possibly a wise modification, but certainly not
a simple "bolt-on" replacement...

>Do I go for disks alround? (my flexible friend)
Again, it's your decision, but IMHO the disc brake conversion is vastly
overrated -- you'd be better off simply adding a power booster to your
current drum setup. The only real benefit of the discs over a *properly
adjusted* drum system is simplified maintenance -- though that could be a
definite selling point for you at this moment

>Or do I just have a mental breakdown!
Is that covered by the National Health? If so, perhaps your doctor can
prescribe some paid time off for Mustang Restoration -- I've heard it can
be quite therapeutic...

-- Dave H.
hammar.dyn.ml.org/~djhamma
hammar.detour.net/~djhamma


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Mail From: Rick Larson (email redacted)

David writes:
>
> On Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 07:40:27, (email redacted) (David Stone)
> wrote:
> >66 Fastback. drums alround non power.
> >I have a problem with my brakes but only after replacing the
> >following:
> >Rear drums (new)
> >Rear wheel cylinders
> >Shoes front and rear.
> >We have bleed the brakes several times (copious amounts of fluid,
> >new) and the pedal still goes to the floor.
>
> OK, first to start with the stupid questions:

IHMO, these are good questions...

> Have you properly pre-set the self-adjusters by hand prior to doing all the
> rest of this bleeding? If the shoes aren't set to the right point (i.e.
> just a hair shy of "dragging" on the drum with the brake pressure
> released), then the system could fully extend (i.e. pedal to the floor) and
> *still* not have the shoes far extended far enough to lock the wheels --
> particularly if all *four* wheels are in this "loose" condition.

Since you did the rear drums, I'd check this first.

> Did you obtain the correct wheel cylinders? There are four diameters
> available -- 13/16" (Correct for '64-1/2), 27/32" (Correct for 1965),
> 29/32" (correct for 1966), 7/8" (Correct for 1967-68). IIRC, changing
> diameters can be bad -- i.e. too small may cause locking, too large might
> cause weak (or no) response.

If 64.5 owners need some 13/16" wheel cylinder rebuild kits, let
me know and I'll mail you two or four. I have some and don't
need them.

rick
--
Rick Larson (email redacted)
Minneapolis

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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: David Stone (email redacted)

Hi Ed,

You wrote:


>David, it sounds like your master cylinder is defectvie, often times upon
>bleeding brakes, the master cylinder piston goes to an area in the bore of the
>master cylinder that is normally not used, this area probably has some rust or
>pitting and gouges the rubbers in the master cylinder causing the piston to
>bypass fluid, hence you do not see any leaks, it's all happening inside the
>system,

Thanks for the reply... Yes that makes sense with the piston going
right through. I have decided to go with the dual from a 67/68 due
the the safety aspect to it.

Dave
66 Fastback


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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Watkins, Paul (email redacted)

Hey Ed! Could you elaborate some more on the sleeving of a master
cylinder? I've never heard of the process before but it sounds very
interesting!

Thanks,

Paul

P.S. I'm just right up the road from you (Charlotte) and wondered if you
ever go to the Mustang Club meetings up at the Village Tavern in
Matthews?

> ----------
> From: EFaille[SMTPemail redacted)]
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 1998 8:41 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: [CM:10143] Re: Brakes Help!
>
> In a message dated 98-03-22 02:50:51 EST, David wrote:
>
> I have a problem with my brakes but only after replacing the
> following:
>
> Rear drums (new)
> Rear wheel cylinders
> Shoes front and rear.
>
> We have bleed the brakes several times (copious amounts of fluid,
> new) and the pedal still goes to the floor.
>
> There are no signs of leak. Everytime..........
>
> David, it sounds like your master cylinder is defectvie, often times
> upon
> bleeding brakes, the master cylinder piston goes to an area in the
> bore of the
> master cylinder that is normally not used, this area probably has some
> rust or
> pitting and gouges the rubbers in the master cylinder causing the
> piston to
> bypass fluid, hence you do not see any leaks, it's all happening
> inside the
> system,
>
> Hope that helps, replace the master cylinder with a new one or have
> yours
> sleeved with bronze and you will never have this happen again.
>
> Ed Faille
> 65 Fastback
> Rock Hill, SC
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> All the list info you'll ever want:
> antler.webworks.ca/~server/cm
>

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