Classic Mustangs List Archive

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Mail From: smckee1 (Scott Mckee)

I've popped the head of my '65 200 once and my '71 250 twice. Don't
remember anything special, pretty simple. Only took me a couple of hours.
It's heavy!
I'd put a level on the bottom side corner to opposite corner to check for
warpage but I suspect you won't have any. The beauty is you only need the
one head gasket, not anything else. Good time to swap out the valve seals
though.

Hope this helps.
Scott


> [Original Message]
> From: Lance <(email redacted)>
> To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
<(email redacted)>
> Date: 10/6/2005 8:48:50 PM
> Subject: [CM] Blown head gasket...
>
> My idiot son called me at work yesterday... "Dad, the radiator has no
"green
> stuff" in it and it's smoking really bad, what should I do?"
>
> Once my blood stopped boiling and I realized that it must just be my
failure
> as a father I told him, "Wait till it cools, then PUT WATER IN IT!" Since
> he had just arrived at his workplace, I told him to wait until after work,
> then it will be sufficiently cool to add water...
>
> That was yesterday...
>
> Today, he calls me at work again... "Dad, the car's smoking really bad and
> running really rough, and there's lots of oil on the rim of that
> rectangular blue thingy...."
>
> Already accepting my failure to raise a boy who knew that the "blue
thingy"
> is called a rocker cover.
>
> I verified with him that he had plenty of oil, and that there was "green
> stuff" in the radiator. Then I told him to finish driving it home..
>
> I already suspected that he had exhaust gas blowing the oil out of the
fill
> cap. When I got home, a quick visual verified my suspicions. There was
> exhaust gas coming out the rocker cover and the dipstick tube...
>
> Arrgh, that pretty much confirmed it, he has blown the head gasket!
>
> My question, The 200cid is a pretty solid engine and has a pretty stout
> cylinder head. Do you guys agree that it's most likely ONLY the head
> gasket?
>
> Also, I've never changed one on a 66 200cid. Any tips I should look out
> for? On most of the other engines I've worked on, replacing the head
gasket
> was pretty much a cut & dry thing.
>
> Thanks in advance...
> Lance Robaldo
> 66 Sapphire Blue 200cid Inline 6 cyl
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classic-mustangs mailing list
> (email redacted)
> lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs

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Mail From: mahilly (Mike H)

Funny story! I say you buy a Toyota (and the extended warranty).
Give it to you son and save the Mustang for the grandchildren.

On 10/6/05, Scott Mckee <(email redacted)> wrote:
> I've popped the head of my '65 200 once and my '71 250 twice. Don't
> remember anything special, pretty simple. Only took me a couple of hours.
> It's heavy!
> I'd put a level on the bottom side corner to opposite corner to check for
> warpage but I suspect you won't have any. The beauty is you only need the
> one head gasket, not anything else. Good time to swap out the valve seals
> though.
>
> Hope this helps.
> Scott
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Lance <(email redacted)>
> > To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
> <(email redacted)>
> > Date: 10/6/2005 8:48:50 PM
> > Subject: [CM] Blown head gasket...
> >
> > My idiot son called me at work yesterday... "Dad, the radiator has no
> "green
> > stuff" in it and it's smoking really bad, what should I do?"
> >
> > Once my blood stopped boiling and I realized that it must just be my
> failure
> > as a father I told him, "Wait till it cools, then PUT WATER IN IT!" Since
> > he had just arrived at his workplace, I told him to wait until after work,
> > then it will be sufficiently cool to add water...
> >
> > That was yesterday...
> >
> > Today, he calls me at work again... "Dad, the car's smoking really bad and
> > running really rough, and there's lots of oil on the rim of that
> > rectangular blue thingy...."
> >
> > Already accepting my failure to raise a boy who knew that the "blue
> thingy"
> > is called a rocker cover.
> >
> > I verified with him that he had plenty of oil, and that there was "green
> > stuff" in the radiator. Then I told him to finish driving it home..
> >
> > I already suspected that he had exhaust gas blowing the oil out of the
> fill
> > cap. When I got home, a quick visual verified my suspicions. There was
> > exhaust gas coming out the rocker cover and the dipstick tube...
> >
> > Arrgh, that pretty much confirmed it, he has blown the head gasket!
> >
> > My question, The 200cid is a pretty solid engine and has a pretty stout
> > cylinder head. Do you guys agree that it's most likely ONLY the head
> > gasket?
> >
> > Also, I've never changed one on a 66 200cid. Any tips I should look out
> > for? On most of the other engines I've worked on, replacing the head
> gasket
> > was pretty much a cut & dry thing.
> >
> > Thanks in advance...
> > Lance Robaldo
> > 66 Sapphire Blue 200cid Inline 6 cyl
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Classic-mustangs mailing list
> > (email redacted)
> > lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classic-mustangs mailing list
> (email redacted)
> lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs
>

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Mail From: lrobaldo (Lance)

OK, I replaced the head gasket. No problems, it was pretty easy. Now I
have a NEW problem.....

The car won't start!

The engine turns over fine... The plugs seem to get plenty of fire... A nice
mist comes out of the carb when pumped... Everything seems perfect, but it
won't start at all....


Any ideas?

Thanks,
Lance.

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Mail From: wal (Wal Marshall)

The car won't start!

Did you pull and replace the distributor...? could the timing be wrong...

Is there the correct clearance between the rocker tips and the valve stems...ie the valves are not being held open..?
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Mail From: smckee1 ((email redacted))

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Mail From: lrobaldo (Lance)

I get a spark at all plugs.
I didn't pull the dizzy, so timing shouldn't be an issue...

Hmmm, I'll have to check compression.. perhaps the valves ARE stuck
open.....
How do you adjust the rocker arms? There is one rocker shaft which all the
rocker arms are on. Shaft has bolts going through it into metal "towers" on
the cylinder head. I cannot see ANY way to adjust it or the rocker
arms......

Thanks,
Lance.

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailtoemail redacted)] On Behalf Of
(email redacted)
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 9:42 PM
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Subject: Re: [CM] Blown head gasket...


Check compression and check that you get spark (lay a spark plug against
ground and look for a spark). If you get both, check that you have the
right wires going to the right plugs. You shouldn't have needed to pull the
distributor. I suspect you have a loose wire in the electrical side... I
don't remember if my 200 was solid or hydraulic lifters, check if you have
nuts on the rocker arm, if not they're hydraulic. The compression test will
let you know if you have stuck open valve problems.

Hope this helps,
Scott


-----Original Message-----
From: Wal Marshall
Sent: Oct 9, 2005 6:21 PM
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Subject: Re: [CM] Blown head gasket...


The car won't start!

Did you pull and replace the distributor...? could the timing be wrong...

Is there the correct clearance between the rocker tips and the valve
stems...ie the valves are not being held open..?

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Mail From: wal (Wal Marshall)

Message> I didn't pull the dizzy, so timing shouldn't be an issue...

Have you got the firing order right??

Hmmm, I'll have to check compression.. perhaps the valves ARE stuck open.....

If you dont have a compression gauge, pull one of more plugs, put your thumb firmly in the hole and crank the engine. If you have compression your thumb will be lifted off the plug seat no matter how hard you push..

How do you adjust the rocker arms? There is one rocker shaft which all the rocker arms are on. Shaft has bolts going through it into metal "towers" on the cylinder head. I cannot see ANY way to adjust it or the rocker arms......

Hydraulic lifters.. no adjustment ... you can check that with the valve closed you can spin the push rod easily with your fingers... ie there is no residual load on it... (with the cam lobe on its heel...)
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Mail From: rrobaldo (Lance Robaldo)

MessageI've checked and rechecked the firing order. It's fine.
Now, if the rocker arms are keeping the valves slightly open, and there's no adjustment, HOW do I fix that???
The push rods have a ball at each end, so filing them down slightly isn't really an option....

Perhaps shims under the pedestals??

Thanks,
Lance.
----- Original Message -----
From: Wal Marshall
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [CM] Blown head gasket...


> I didn't pull the dizzy, so timing shouldn't be an issue...

Have you got the firing order right??

Hmmm, I'll have to check compression.. perhaps the valves ARE stuck open.....

If you dont have a compression gauge, pull one of more plugs, put your thumb firmly in the hole and crank the engine. If you have compression your thumb will be lifted off the plug seat no matter how hard you push..

How do you adjust the rocker arms? There is one rocker shaft which all the rocker arms are on. Shaft has bolts going through it into metal "towers" on the cylinder head. I cannot see ANY way to adjust it or the rocker arms......

Hydraulic lifters.. no adjustment ... you can check that with the valve closed you can spin the push rod easily with your fingers... ie there is no residual load on it... (with the cam lobe on its heel...)


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Mail From: wal (Wal Marshall)

Message Now, if the rocker arms are keeping the valves slightly open, and there's no adjustment, HOW do I fix that???
The push rods have a ball at each end, so filing them down slightly isn't really an option....

If everything was fine before the headgasket blew, and you havent changed anything except the headgasket, ie same cam followers, push rods, valves and rockers, then all should be fine.

The compression check will confirm it..

Perhaps shims under the pedestals??

Could be done..... but if you DO have no compression, then I would suspect some other problem....when you crank the engine with the tappet cover off, I assume all the valves are opening and closing normally... ?

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Mail From: edward.p.mcsweeney (McSweeney, Edward P)

When you installed the timing gears did the timing marks line up with
the #1 cylinder at TDC?

Ed







________________________________

From: (email redacted)
[mailtoemail redacted)] On Behalf Of Wal
Marshall
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:46 PM
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Subject: Re: [CM] Blown head gasket...



Now, if the rocker arms are keeping the valves slightly open, and
there's no adjustment, HOW do I fix that???

The push rods have a ball at each end, so filing them down slightly
isn't really an option....



If everything was fine before the headgasket blew, and you havent
changed anything except the headgasket, ie same cam followers, push
rods, valves and rockers, then all should be fine.



The compression check will confirm it..



Perhaps shims under the pedestals??



Could be done..... but if you DO have no compression, then I would
suspect some other problem....when you crank the engine with the tappet
cover off, I assume all the valves are opening and closing normally...
?



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Mail From: rrobaldo (Lance Robaldo)

MessageI didn't install any timing gears. All I did was replace a head gasket. The dizzy wasn't touched and the timing gears weren't touched.

Lance.

----- Original Message -----
From: McSweeney, Edward P
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: [CM] Blown head gasket...


When you installed the timing gears did the timing marks line up with the #1 cylinder at TDC?

Ed








------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)] On Behalf Of Wal Marshall
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:46 PM
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Subject: Re: [CM] Blown head gasket...



Now, if the rocker arms are keeping the valves slightly open, and there's no adjustment, HOW do I fix that???

The push rods have a ball at each end, so filing them down slightly isn't really an option....



If everything was fine before the headgasket blew, and you havent changed anything except the headgasket, ie same cam followers, push rods, valves and rockers, then all should be fine.



The compression check will confirm it..



Perhaps shims under the pedestals??



Could be done..... but if you DO have no compression, then I would suspect some other problem....when you crank the engine with the tappet cover off, I assume all the valves are opening and closing normally... ?





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Mail From: rrobaldo (Lance Robaldo)

MessageYes, valves "appear" to be opening and closing normally. But then I can't really tell if they are closing fully, or if the rocker arms are holding them slightly open.

The only thing I changed was the head gasket itself, the exhaust gasket, & the water-neck gasket. Everything else remained the same.

I used a drill-powered wire brush to clean the faces of the block and head, then I ran a straight-edge over the block and head in a corner-to corner motion to verify they were both flat. I torqued the head down in the proper pattern first to 55 lbs, then retorqued it to 65, and finally retorqued the whole thing to 75 lbs.

Finally I re-inserted the push rods in the same holes they were removed from, torqued down the rocker shaft to 30 lbs, re-installed the valve cover, carb, hoses, plugs, wires, etc, and tried to start it...

That's where I remain now.... everything looks good, but it will only turn over and not start.

I'll pick up a compression tester tomorrow. What should the compression be?

Lance.



----- Original Message -----
From: Wal Marshall
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [CM] Blown head gasket...


Now, if the rocker arms are keeping the valves slightly open, and there's no adjustment, HOW do I fix that???
The push rods have a ball at each end, so filing them down slightly isn't really an option....

If everything was fine before the headgasket blew, and you havent changed anything except the headgasket, ie same cam followers, push rods, valves and rockers, then all should be fine.

The compression check will confirm it..

Perhaps shims under the pedestals??

Could be done..... but if you DO have no compression, then I would suspect some other problem....when you crank the engine with the tappet cover off, I assume all the valves are opening and closing normally... ?



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Mail From: edward.p.mcsweeney (McSweeney, Edward P)

Got it.



With all the plugs out do you get any compression at all when you crank
the engine? (check all cylinders)



When you get an overheated head several things can happen including a
cracked head, warped head, and bound valves/weak valve springs, warped
push rods/frozen lifters.



Trying to isolate the problem can be a pain. So start with all cylinder
compression.



Note what cylinders have no compression.





Is this a V8 or a 6



Ed



________________________________

From: (email redacted)
[mailtoemail redacted)] On Behalf Of
Lance Robaldo
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 2:47 PM
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Subject: Re: [CM] Blown head gasket...



I didn't install any timing gears. All I did was replace a head gasket.
The dizzy wasn't touched and the timing gears weren't touched.



Lance.



----- Original Message -----

From: McSweeney, Edward P <mailtoemail redacted)>


To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
<mailtoemail redacted)>

Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:14 PM

Subject: RE: [CM] Blown head gasket...



When you installed the timing gears did the timing marks line
up with the #1 cylinder at TDC?

Ed








________________________________


From: (email redacted)
[mailtoemail redacted)] On Behalf Of Wal
Marshall
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:46 PM
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Subject: Re: [CM] Blown head gasket...



Now, if the rocker arms are keeping the valves slightly open,
and there's no adjustment, HOW do I fix that???

The push rods have a ball at each end, so filing them down
slightly isn't really an option....



If everything was fine before the headgasket blew, and you
havent changed anything except the headgasket, ie same cam followers,
push rods, valves and rockers, then all should be fine.



The compression check will confirm it..



Perhaps shims under the pedestals??



Could be done..... but if you DO have no compression, then I
would suspect some other problem....when you crank the engine with the
tappet cover off, I assume all the valves are opening and closing
normally... ?




________________________________


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Mail From: smckee1 ((email redacted))

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Mail From: wal (Wal Marshall)

Message That's where I remain now.... everything looks good, but it will only turn over and not start.

Is there any sign of life...any sign that even an occasional cylinder fires, or is it totally dead? Have you got around 8V at the coil during cranking, and 12 V when not cranking?

I'll pick up a compression tester tomorrow. What should the compression be?

Depends on lots of things like thottle position, engine cranking speed, air temp etc.. but over 100 psi and maybe as high as 160 .. Whats important is that they are even.

If you have compression, then its got to be fuel or ignition..



----- Original Message -----
From: Wal Marshall
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [CM] Blown head gasket...


Now, if the rocker arms are keeping the valves slightly open, and there's no adjustment, HOW do I fix that???
The push rods have a ball at each end, so filing them down slightly isn't really an option....

If everything was fine before the headgasket blew, and you havent changed anything except the headgasket, ie same cam followers, push rods, valves and rockers, then all should be fine.

The compression check will confirm it..

Perhaps shims under the pedestals??

Could be done..... but if you DO have no compression, then I would suspect some other problem....when you crank the engine with the tappet cover off, I assume all the valves are opening and closing normally... ?



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Mail From: rrobaldo (Lance Robaldo)

MessageFinal verdict:

Apparently the Dizzy did jump a tooth. Fixed that, now the car starts fine.

There is a loss of compression in the #6 cylinder and now the exhaust is smoking.... Can you say "bad piston ring"?

I suppose that makes sence, #6 is furthest from the water pump, so when my idiot son (I'm becoming endeared to that name...) ran the car without water, it makes sense that #6 overheated first.

Sounds like ring job in the near future..... But for now it runs... I can save up my $$ a bit and have the entire engine rebuilt later... For now my son has a car he can use to get back & forth to school and work.

If I can keep it running till summer break, then we can put it in the shop and have the entire engine rebuilt.

Thanks for all your help guys!

Lance.
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