Classic Mustangs List Archive

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Mail From: richsilv (Rich Silva)

I have got an "interesting" one (in the Chinese sense).



Context - '65 Sedan; T-5 trannie, still with mechanical clutch linkage;
Centerforce clutch.



Yesterday I was on my way home from an errand. At the start of this journey,
I had the normal amount of clutch play. Next shift. play seems a bit large.
hmmm; better check this I think.



By the time, I got home (which was only about 2-3 miles); I had to kick the
car into neutral to keep from running into the Washer. No clutch pedal left
at all.



By various means, I have checked that the clutch pedal/underdash brace is
likely fine (I blocked the pushrod at the primary clutch pivot and convinced
myself that the "4 inches of play" were not there.



I have visually inspected (admittedly around headers, spark plug wires and
various other things blocking my view. The Ball end at the block appears to
be OK, certainly not broken. The ball end at the frame also appears to be
fine, at least not broken.



The primary pivot itself (the Shelby version, if it matters) appears fine,
but I really cannot check it completely without removal.



The clutch, I am pretty convinced, is OK. no noises. working fine if I can
press on the throwout bearing.



The only two things left are the clutch fork, its fulcrum, and the throwout
bearing. I would not think the throwout bearing. It could scream, but get
"mushy", nah.



Anyway. It will be towed tomorrow somewhere where they have a lift and the
"young bucks" to screw with that scattershield...



Rich



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Mail From: mstrawn1 (mstrawn1)

I'll bet that the clutch fork got a crack in it, then bent under the load of disengaging the clutch. Let us know...
Michael Strawn (Fordman)
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Mail From: cwdaniel (Cliff Daniel)

Sounds like a bent and/or bending clutch fork to me. I'm familiar with the
Mustang manual trans, are the forks stamped steel? Or cast?
I've seen cast ones crack. Maybe a stamped steel one could bend.

Cliff Daniel
Tempe, AZ

66 Fastback
members.cox.net/cwdaniel/stang%20page/indexstang.htm


-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailtoemail redacted)]On Behalf Of Rich
Silva
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:12 PM
To: 'A list for owners of Classic Mustangs'
Subject: [CM] '65 Sedan Clutch Woes


I have got an "interesting" one (in the Chinese sense).



Context - '65 Sedan; T-5 trannie, still with mechanical clutch linkage;
Centerforce clutch.



Yesterday I was on my way home from an errand. At the start of this
journey, I had the normal amount of clutch play. Next shift. play seems a
bit large. hmmm; better check this I think.



By the time, I got home (which was only about 2-3 miles); I had to kick
the car into neutral to keep from running into the Washer. No clutch pedal
left at all.



By various means, I have checked that the clutch pedal/underdash brace is
likely fine (I blocked the pushrod at the primary clutch pivot and convinced
myself that the "4 inches of play" were not there.



I have visually inspected (admittedly around headers, spark plug wires and
various other things blocking my view. The Ball end at the block appears to
be OK, certainly not broken. The ball end at the frame also appears to be
fine, at least not broken.



The primary pivot itself (the Shelby version, if it matters) appears fine,
but I really cannot check it completely without removal.



The clutch, I am pretty convinced, is OK. no noises. working fine if I can
press on the throwout bearing.



The only two things left are the clutch fork, its fulcrum, and the
throwout bearing. I would not think the throwout bearing. It could scream,
but get "mushy", nah.



Anyway. It will be towed tomorrow somewhere where they have a lift and the
"young bucks" to screw with that scattershield...



Rich


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Mail From: richsilv (Rich Silva)

Mine is stamped.



In a previous life of my Sedan. I did have the fork "fulcrum" crack and bend
so that the fork was actually pivoting by rocking on the scatershield. But
that was with one of those "leg excercising" 70's style racing clutches. I
didn't/don't think the centerforce takes all that much pressure to release
so I'm going to be surprised no matter what is bent in this case.



Rich



-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailtoemail redacted)] On Behalf Of Cliff
Daniel
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:41 PM
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Subject: RE: [CM] '65 Sedan Clutch Woes



Sounds like a bent and/or bending clutch fork to me. I'm familiar with the
Mustang manual trans, are the forks stamped steel? Or cast?

I've seen cast ones crack. Maybe a stamped steel one could bend.



Cliff Daniel
Tempe, AZ

66 Fastback
members.cox.net/cwdaniel/stang%20page/indexstang.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailtoemail redacted)]On Behalf Of Rich
Silva
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:12 PM
To: 'A list for owners of Classic Mustangs'
Subject: [CM] '65 Sedan Clutch Woes

I have got an "interesting" one (in the Chinese sense).



Context - '65 Sedan; T-5 trannie, still with mechanical clutch linkage;
Centerforce clutch.



Yesterday I was on my way home from an errand. At the start of this journey,
I had the normal amount of clutch play. Next shift. play seems a bit large.
hmmm; better check this I think.



By the time, I got home (which was only about 2-3 miles); I had to kick the
car into neutral to keep from running into the Washer. No clutch pedal left
at all.



By various means, I have checked that the clutch pedal/underdash brace is
likely fine (I blocked the pushrod at the primary clutch pivot and convinced
myself that the "4 inches of play" were not there.



I have visually inspected (admittedly around headers, spark plug wires and
various other things blocking my view. The Ball end at the block appears to
be OK, certainly not broken. The ball end at the frame also appears to be
fine, at least not broken.



The primary pivot itself (the Shelby version, if it matters) appears fine,
but I really cannot check it completely without removal.



The clutch, I am pretty convinced, is OK. no noises. working fine if I can
press on the throwout bearing.



The only two things left are the clutch fork, its fulcrum, and the throwout
bearing. I would not think the throwout bearing. It could scream, but get
"mushy", nah.



Anyway. It will be towed tomorrow somewhere where they have a lift and the
"young bucks" to screw with that scattershield...



Rich



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Mail From: tja (Tad Anhalt)

Rich Silva wrote:
> Context - '65 Sedan; T-5 trannie, still with mechanical clutch
> linkage; Centerforce clutch.

This doesn't sound like it's your problem, but I'll just interject
some (sorta off-topic) ruminations about the mechanical clutch linkage
on early mustangs.

The stock setup relys on the equalizer arm being able to move side to
side. It is critical that it does since the lower pivot is only able to
allow motion in the up and down direction (unless the hole has been
hogged out from wear, but that causes other problems). The side to side
motion is required because the throwout arm actually travels in an arc
as the clutch is released.

This motion is provided for by two felt washers on either side of the
arm. These are often replaced with washers (or nothing) and the
assembly is then adjusted to allow no play and cinched down. I've even
seen cars with extra washers between the block pivot and the block to
further tighten this gap. Bad juju. Somethings got to give and in this
case, it will either be the lower rod, the equaliser arm, or the throwout
arm.

Needless to say, the clutch will be heavy, grabby, and generally not
quite something you want to push on every day.

Even if you manage to avoid (or fix) the problem detailed above, having
the entire eq arm sliding around isn't really that great of a solution,
it still
binds and there is still a lot of friction as it tries to turn and slide
at the
same time.

On my car, I made a lower arm using a rod end and a bolt with the
head sawn off and the shank ground to the same profile as the original.
It now operates like the hydraulic clutches in newer cars, but has the
feedback that the direct linkage provides. Very nice indeed and cheap
to boot!

Tad Anhalt
Des Moines, Ia.
'67 Convertable.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: ronmail (RonC)

> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:12:18 -0700
> From: "Rich Silva" <(email redacted)>

Had something very similar happen to my 70 Mach I. In my case it was the
clutch pivot assembly (Z-Bar). The weld joint that held one of the arms
to the rotating shaft was 90% separated. Clutch pedal went straight to
the floor while I was in 1st and going to shift to 2nd. I managed to
pull into a shopping center parking lot and got AAA towed home. Next day
found the problem part rather easily.

I believe the bent release lever is a strong possibility to. Let the
list know.

Good Luck,
Ron Columbo
Chandler, AZ
64-1/2 Conv
65 GT FB
65 FB
70 Mach I


>
> I have got an "interesting" one (in the Chinese sense).
>
>
>
> Context - '65 Sedan; T-5 trannie, still with mechanical clutch
linkage;
> Centerforce clutch.
>
>
>
> Yesterday I was on my way home from an errand. At the start of this
journey,
> I had the normal amount of clutch play. Next shift. play seems a bit
large.
> hmmm; better check this I think.
>
>
>
> By the time, I got home (which was only about 2-3 miles); I had to
kick the
> car into neutral to keep from running into the Washer. No clutch pedal
left
> at all.
>
>
>
> By various means, I have checked that the clutch pedal/underdash brace
is
> likely fine (I blocked the pushrod at the primary clutch pivot and
convinced
> myself that the "4 inches of play" were not there.
>
>
>
> I have visually inspected (admittedly around headers, spark plug wires
and
> various other things blocking my view. The Ball end at the block
appears to
> be OK, certainly not broken. The ball end at the frame also appears to
be
> fine, at least not broken.
>
>
>
> The primary pivot itself (the Shelby version, if it matters) appears
fine,
> but I really cannot check it completely without removal.
>
>
>
> The clutch, I am pretty convinced, is OK. no noises. working fine if I
can
> press on the throwout bearing.
>
>
>
> The only two things left are the clutch fork, its fulcrum, and the
throwout
> bearing. I would not think the throwout bearing. It could scream, but
get
> "mushy", nah.
>
>
>
> Anyway. It will be towed tomorrow somewhere where they have a lift and
the
> "young bucks" to screw with that scattershield...
>
>
>
> Rich

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: boss289 (m russell)


How does this differ from the original? What is the advantage of making this piece as you describe?

I'm missing something.


> On my car, I made a lower arm using a rod end
> and a bolt with the
> head sawn off and the shank ground to the same
> profile as the original.
> It now operates like the hydraulic clutches
> in newer cars, but has the
> feedback that the direct linkage provides.
> Very nice indeed and cheap
> to boot!
>
> Tad Anhalt
> Des Moines, Ia.
> '67 Convertable.
>



____________________________________________________________
University of Phoenix Online. Free Information - Online Classes
r.hotbot.com/r/lmt_uopo/servedby.advertising.com/click/site=563632/mnum=125825
This offer applies to U.S. Residents Only

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: richsilv (Rich Silva)



Well, we've figured out the culprit. that's the good news.



The Clutch Fork Pivot (a small bracket that bolts onto the back of the
scattershield; the Clutch fork, well, pivots on it) cracked and "flattened
out".



The problem is that Lakewood does not stock these parts.



I have a welder attempting to weld both this one and the one that broke so
long ago. We'll pick them over to decide which to actually use. Unless I can
get spares from Lakewood, I consider this a temporary measure at best.



When I have the cash. I'll replace the mechanical clutch linkage with either
a cable or hydraulic unit. Any comment about which is better? Comments from
anyone on how tough each of these is to do?



Rich

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Mail From: tja (Tad Anhalt)

m russell wrote:
> How does this differ from the original? What is the advantage of
> making this piece as you describe?

You replace a part that only has freedom to move in one plane with a
bearing that has much greater range of motion. This is the type of
bearing that I'm talking about:

aurorabearing.com/page5.html

Basically, the gist of it is that you let the arm move in both the
dimensions that it wants to instead of forcing the eq. bar to slide back
and forth.

The bearing itself is under $8 and can be ordered from aircraft spruce,
summit, or from a local industrial supplier.

It really does free things up considerably.

Tad Anhalt
Des Moines, Ia.
'67 Convertable

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: richsilv (Rich Silva)


Ahh, now I understand a little more... I couldn't visualize it... I think I
managed (during my restoration) to end up with something very like that and
I believe it to be a "stock Ford part"... On mine, I have the "hime" end and
an adjustable length... Needed that after fiddling with this and that and
the scattershield, the T-5, headers, lions and tigers and bears, oh my...

Once you've done that, do you "pinch" the main pivot so it doesn't slide any
longer (say with a washer on the block side, and a washer and spring on the
frame side)?

After talking with a HiPo shop nearby, they suggest using a McLeod Hydraulic
set up... Anyone have some experience there?

Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailtoemail redacted)] On Behalf Of Tad
Anhalt
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 4:51 PM
To: A list for owners of Classic Mustangs
Subject: Re: fabricated clutch link?, Re: [CM] '65 Sedan Clutch Woes

m russell wrote:
> How does this differ from the original? What is the advantage of
> making this piece as you describe?

You replace a part that only has freedom to move in one plane with a
bearing that has much greater range of motion. This is the type of
bearing that I'm talking about:

aurorabearing.com/page5.html

Basically, the gist of it is that you let the arm move in both the
dimensions that it wants to instead of forcing the eq. bar to slide back
and forth.

The bearing itself is under $8 and can be ordered from aircraft spruce,
summit, or from a local industrial supplier.

It really does free things up considerably.

Tad Anhalt
Des Moines, Ia.
'67 Convertable

_______________________________________________
Classic-mustangs mailing list
(email redacted)
lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: tja (Tad Anhalt)

Rich Silva wrote:
> Ahh, now I understand a little more... I couldn't visualize it... I
> think I managed (during my restoration) to end up with something very
> like that and I believe it to be a "stock Ford part"... On mine, I
> have the "hime" end and an adjustable length... Needed that after
> fiddling with this and that and the scattershield, the T-5, headers,
> lions and tigers and bears, oh my...

The one that I made uses a jam nut to lock the adjustment in place.
There is probably ~1" of usable adjustment. If I run out, I'll just make a
new rod. They're pretty easy to knock out.

> Once you've done that, do you "pinch" the main pivot so it doesn't
> slide any longer (say with a washer on the block side, and a washer
> and spring on the frame side)?

You could, I just left the stock style felt washers in place. I
thought they'd contain the grease a little better. Even though I did
add grease zerks on each end, they're a royal pain to get to with the
header in place. I can barely squeeze a u-joint needle through enough
to get at them. I wanted to hide them from casual view, but I did too
good of a job

I don't think the object is to make sure that it doesn't slide. If it
does, no problem, if it binds, no problem. Before I did this,
everything seemed to be sliding fine visually, but the pedal didn't feel
smooth... Sort of bind, release, bind, release, bind, etc.

The other thing that I did that seemed to help a lot was to drill out the
top hole to accept an oillite shouldered bearing instead of that silly nylon
"bearing" that came on the stock setup. Very smooth now with a lot less
effort. Can't say which made more difference as I did them at the same
time. Either way, they're both really cheap upgrades (less than $10 total,
IIRC) and it looks stock viewed from the top (if that even matters).

Tad Anhalt
Des Moines, Ia.
'67 Convertable.